Billy the Kid - Page 2 - Dallas Cowboys Forum

jksmith269 · 06-10-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by big dog cowboy

I would rather have a kickoff go 10 yards further and give up 5 extra return yards. So your kick return average takes a hit but the opposing offense has a longer field to work with.

Read my previous post we gave up onaverage 1.82 yards in distance on kickoffs but gave up 5.23yards less per return so that means we did what you want with out having to kick 10yards more and giving up more yards.

look at it like this if the 14 teams ahead of us (except zona and Jax) opponets average start was the 25 then our average opponets start would have been the 21-22

**big dog cowboy** · 06-10-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by jksmith269

Read my previous post we gave up onaverage 1.82 yards in distance on kickoffs but gave up 5.23yards less per return so that means we did what you want with out having to kick 10yards more and giving up more yards.

look at it like this if the 14 teams ahead of us (except zona and Jax) opponets average start was the 25 then our average opponets start would have been the 21-22

Gotcha. That sounds logical.

Nors · 06-10-2005

Cundiff with hang time doing what the coaches are asking? lower net return for offense. Also reduces risk of a big return. May not be a line drive deep that looks impressive, but effective on a net basis.

AdamJT13 · 06-10-2005

We finished fifth in the NFL in pinning our opponents deep on kickoffs. The average starting point for our opponents after kickoffs was the 25.5-yard line. The NFL average was the 28.6.

Nors · 06-10-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamJT13

We finished fifth in the NFL in pinning our opponents deep on kickoffs. The average starting point for our opponents after kickoffs was the 25.5-yard line. The NFL average was the 28.6.

Adam:

Thanks for further validating that. Cundiff gets knocked on his kickoffs yet in reality he's totally getting the job done.

jksmith269 · 06-10-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamJT13

We finished fifth in the NFL in pinning our opponents deep on kickoffs. The average starting point for our opponents after kickoffs was the 25.5-yard line. The NFL average was the 28.6.

I can buy that I was mainly talking to those who want billy to kick the ball longer so I was just comparing him to the teams who had longer average kicks. So who were the 4 that did better I can only find 3 Zona, Jax and Detroit. so who was the fourth? and as I said I wasn't counting zona and Jax in the math I did before I did count Detroit who had an average starting 25.3 and we had a 25.8 100-(61.7+30)=8.3+17.5=25.8

AdamJT13 · 06-10-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by jksmith269

I can buy that I was mainly talking to those who want billy to kick the ball longer so I was just comparing him to the teams who had longer average kicks. So who were the 4 that did better I can only find 3 Zona, Jax and Detroit. so who was the fourth? and as I said I wasn't counting zona and Jax in the math I did before I did count Detroit who had an average starting 25.3 and we had a 25.8 100-(61.7+30)=8.3+17.5=25.8

Here were the official numbers from the NFL --

1. Atlanta 23.6
2. Arizona 23.8
3. Detroit 24.3
4. Jacksonville 25.0
5. Dallas 25.5
6. Miami 26.5
7. Philadelphia 27.0
8. Buffalo 27.5
9. Cleveland 27.6
10. New Orleans 27.7
11. N.Y. Jets 27.8
12. Denver 28.1
13. Houston 28.2
14. Oakland 28.5
15. Cincinnati 28.5
16. Pittsburgh 28.9
17. New England 29
18. Tennessee 29.6
19. Carolina 29.6
20. Baltimore 29.8
21. Green Bay 29.8
22. Tampa Bay 29.8
23. Seattle 29.8
24. N.Y. Giants 30.2
25. Chicago 30.5
26. San Diego 30.7
27. San Francisco 30.7
28. Minnesota 30.7
29. Washington 30.8
30. Kansas City 31
31. Indianapolis 31.2
32. St. Louis 31.3

Note that the NFL does not include onside kicks, squib kicks at the end of halves or kickoffs that result in a fumble recovered by the kicking team, unless the onside kick/squib kick was returned for a touchdown. (There were 93 of those types of kickoffs -- less than three per team -- out of 2,453 total kickoffs last season.)

Nors · 06-10-2005

Funny how perception is Cundiff sux on Kickoffs when in fact his kicks and our coverage rate top 5 in the league! :winkie:

blindzebra · 06-10-2005

He had 3 touchbacks, we were #5 because our average return was a league best 17.5.

He does not kick it far enough and our coverage unit is good.

jksmith269 · 06-10-2005

The difference has to be the onside kicks because NFL.com includes them I guess because atlanta according to their numbers averaged 26.3 opponets start now they had 3 onside kicks which if you took an average of 10yards per kick then it would change their average to around 24 close to where your numbers have them.

BTW where did you get those numbers?

Chocolate Lab · 06-10-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nors

Funny how perception is Cundiff sux on Kickoffs when in fact his kicks and our coverage rate top 5 in the league! :winkie:

Exactly, he gets knocked for not kicking it deep enough, when in reality DeHaven prefers hangtime for better coverage. Not only is our opponent starting position very good, but we haven't allowed a touchdown return in two years now, have we?

I've never understood the venom for Billy. He may not be great, but he's pretty good IMO. I think people still have memories of his rookie year when he was shaky, but we knew then he was a developmental kicker, and I think it was the right decision to go with a guy Hoffman identfied as a talent even if it meant a little inconsistency his first year. We weren't going anywhere back then anyway.

Nors · 06-10-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by blindzebra

He had 3 touchbacks, we were #5 because our average return was a league best 17.5.

He does not kick it far enough and our coverage unit is good.

Having played gunner and wide on Kick returns its all HANG TIME. You are most at risk on a "line drive" kick that looks impressive. Its just outkicking coverage and sets you up for big returns. Parcells and Cundiff are sacrificing yardage for hang time and reduced net return. Sound football.

Hence we were per Adam the 5th best last year. Simple math.

Hostile · 06-10-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamJT13

Here were the official numbers from the NFL --

1. Atlanta 23.6
2. Arizona 23.8
3. Detroit 24.3
4. Jacksonville 25.0
5. Dallas 25.5
6. Miami 26.5
7. Philadelphia 27.0
8. Buffalo 27.5
9. Cleveland 27.6
10. New Orleans 27.7
11. N.Y. Jets 27.8
12. Denver 28.1
13. Houston 28.2
14. Oakland 28.5
15. Cincinnati 28.5
16. Pittsburgh 28.9
17. New England 29
18. Tennessee 29.6
19. Carolina 29.6
20. Baltimore 29.8
21. Green Bay 29.8
22. Tampa Bay 29.8
23. Seattle 29.8
24. N.Y. Giants 30.2
25. Chicago 30.5
26. San Diego 30.7
27. San Francisco 30.7
28. Minnesota 30.7
29. Washington 30.8
30. Kansas City 31
31. Indianapolis 31.2
32. St. Louis 31.3

[View Full Quote]

Good post. Please remember that some of that has to do with the coverage units, not just the kicker.

Oh, and I hate kickers.

blindzebra · 06-10-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nors

Having played gunner and wide on Kick returns its all HANG TIME. You are most at risk on a "line drive" kick that looks impressive. Its just outkicking coverage and sets you up for big returns. Parcells and Cundiff are sacrificing yardage for hang time and reduced net return. Sound football.

Hence we were per Adam the 5th best last year. Simple math.

Parcells himself has been critical of Cundiff's kickoffs.

Nors · 06-10-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by blindzebra

Parcells himself has been critical of Cundiff's kickoffs.

Link - he's critical of a top 5 rated kickoff unit - please post that

Yet he's happy with Zimmers 406 points allowed last year?

Wow