Would You Trade Henson for Vick? - Page 7 - Dallas Cowboys Forum

ChrisFul · 07-12-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrAinPaiNt

I do not want to get into the middle of some of the silly love/hate QC debates....however I think you missed the posters intentions or what was said.

It is my understanding that he said that Vick has fewer INTs for his WHOLE nfl career (limited as it might be) combined....then QC has in this ONE past season.

So it really would make no difference if QC has played 30 games in his career or not...because it was only based off of ONE of QC's seasons (this past season) compared to ALL of Vicks seasons combined.

Once again I do not want to get into the middle of these QC things...however just wanted to make sure that you got the gist of the other posters point as it seemed you were adding stuff about the number of starts for QC being more...when it did not matter in the point that was being made.

Geh, i did misread that. oh well, everyone just disregard it.

My points about Vick don't change, though.

EGTuna · 07-13-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisFul

Geh, i did misread that. oh well, everyone just disregard it.

My points about Vick don't change, though.

You said Vick was woefully inaccurate in College? Did you watch him play? I saw every snap he ever took, some live, some on TV. He is accurate. He has lapses in accuracy because he tends to throw too hard. Vick has the capability to be much more accurate. I've seen him rifle a 20 yard out to a WR where the ball was placed perfectly.

And you're right, he makes MUCH better decisions than most young QBs. I will bet you that his completion percentage goes to 60% or better this year now that he's in a west coast offense and also has better WRs.

Doomsday101 · 07-13-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by EGTuna

You said Vick was woefully inaccurate in College? Did you watch him play? I saw every snap he ever took, some live, some on TV. He is accurate. He has lapses in accuracy because he tends to throw too hard. Vick has the capability to be much more accurate. I've seen him rifle a 20 yard out to a WR where the ball was placed perfectly.

And you're right, he makes MUCH better decisions than most young QBs. I will bet you that his completion percentage goes to 60% or better this year now that he's in a west coast offense and also has better WRs.

For Atlanta that is the big question can Vick become more accurate as well as being a little more patient in the pocket. I also agree with Montana that for Vick to survive in the NFL he is going to have to start protecting himself better by sliding or getting out of bounds instead of acting as if he is some RB. This is not college football this is the Pros and if Vick continues to run like a RB his career will be a short one.

LaTunaNostra · 07-13-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by EGTuna

You said Vick was woefully inaccurate in College? Did you watch him play? I saw every snap he ever took, some live, some on TV. He is accurate. He has lapses in accuracy because he tends to throw too hard. Vick has the capability to be much more accurate. I've seen him rifle a 20 yard out to a WR where the ball was placed perfectly.

And you're right, he makes MUCH better decisions than most young QBs. I will bet you that his completion percentage goes to 60% or better this year now that he's in a west coast offense and also has better WRs.

Last night they replayed an early 2002 game between the Packers and Falcons which the Pack won in overtime.

Vick was extremely accurate on those intermediate and short passes. His touch is what needs work, but that wasn't egregious.

That was two years ago, and his pass game already looked more accurate than he is attributed with today by some.

The fact is this kid is overhyped, but not over rated.

Those who can watch his game and not call him a good developing passer need to take their eyes off his feet.

His one big "flaw" is his height. It is that height, (6'0" if that), not his accuracy, that is going to make a classic pocket passer in the 1950's sense unrealizable for him.

But my take on him remains what it was in the late nineties when I first saw him play.

He is the most talented QB I have ever laid eyes on.

Doomsday101 · 07-13-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaTunaNostra

Last night they replayed an early 2002 game between the Packers and Falcons which the Pack won in overtime.

Vick was extremely accurate on those intermediate and short passes. His touch is what needs work, but that wasn't egregious.

That was two years ago, and his pass game already looked more accurate than he is attributed with today by some.

The fact is this kid is overhyped, but not over rated.

Those who can watch his game and not call him a good developing passer need to take their eyes off his feet.

His one big "flaw" is his height. It is that height, (6'0" if that), not his accuracy, that is going to make a classic pocket passer in the 1950's sense unrealizable for him.

But my take on him remains what it was in the late nineties when I first saw him play.

He is the most talented QB I have ever laid eyes on.

I'm not saying Vick can't become an accurate passer but the fact is he is not very accurate right now. His completion rate thus far as been 42%, 54.9% and 50%. Sorry but taking 1 game and making the claim off that 1 game that Vick is a accurate passer is not really a great argument.

EGTuna · 07-13-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaTunaNostra

Last night they replayed an early 2002 game between the Packers and Falcons which the Pack won in overtime.

Vick was extremely accurate on those intermediate and short passes. His touch is what needs work, but that wasn't egregious.

That was two years ago, and his pass game already looked more accurate than he is attributed with today by some.

The fact is this kid is overhyped, but not over rated.

Those who can watch his game and not call him a good developing passer need to take their eyes off his feet.

His one big "flaw" is his height. It is that height, (6'0" if that), not his accuracy, that is going to make a classic pocket passer in the 1950's sense unrealizable for him.

But my take on him remains what it was in the late nineties when I first saw him play.

He is the most talented QB I have ever laid eyes on.

I agree 100%. In the first half of that game he was 10/10 134 yards, and a TD passing and rushing. You're right, his height will potentially hinder some of his passes (maybe), but now in the west coast offense, which relies on 3 and 5 step drops, his accuracy will improve. One thing about VIck, is that due to his quick feet, he will get back in his stance in the 3-5 step drops quicker than most, and also his ultra-quick release will allow him to get rid of the ball quicker.

LaTunaNostra · 07-13-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doomsday101

I'm not saying Vick can't become an accurate passer but the fact is he is not very accurate right now. His completion rate thus far as been 42%, 54.9% and 50%. Sorry but taking 1 game and making the claim off that 1 game that Vick is a accurate passer is not really a great argument.

Well, I try to catch every game he plays. I don't like missing them, as watching VIck is like watching history unfold.

Haven't always been able to do so, but I have tivo and Sunday ticket so I have seem many of his games. Most of them in fact. This was one I had missed, which I hadn't wanted to, as Terry Glenn also played in it.

Those stats are qualified by many things. He did enter the league at age 20. He hasn't had quality receivers, and when Peerless moved over from Buffalo, Vick then got hurt.

He has not played behind an exceptional pass protection line yet.

He has not played with a good defense.

He has had to be "the offsnse", to carry it on his very young shoulders.

This means that accuracy has been sacrificed to play making, to trying to make things happen.

But he has not just a gun, but a delivery, and if you watch his games, you come away AMAZED at the accuracy he displays thowing across his body running at a phenomenal rate of speed. He hasn't had the op to develop his pocket game as much as he should have because of the limitations of personnel, and the mandate to be the O.

But Mora has decided he is accurate enough to design a wco around him.

That alone tells us what the experts think of his accuracy.

When he got hurt last year, btw, it was not because he decided to take off. He actually got twisted the wrong way on the perimeters of the pocket.

Mike Vick is all that.

And that is my "argument".

LaTunaNostra · 07-13-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by EGTuna

I agree 100%. In the first half of that game he was 10/10 134 yards, and a TD passing and rushing. You're right, his height will potentially hinder some of his passes (maybe), but now in the west coast offense, which relies on 3 and 5 step drops, his accuracy will improve. One thing about VIck, is that due to his quick feet, he will get back in his stance in the 3-5 step drops quicker than most, and also his ultra-quick release will allow him to get rid of the ball quicker.

Good points on the foot speed, and height factor in the wco.

It'll be a learning process for him, for sure.

Gotta admit, he won me over at VTech, and when in his rookie year in Atlanta he reportedly told his teammates "I am the offense. Get on my shoulders and ride me". LOL

I am not a QB "elitest", at all, but as a long time NFL fan I am thrilled to have the oportunity to watch a kid who truly can "put a team on his shoulders"

In our time of managed bus drivers, to see that kind of talent, leadership, and spirit, once again is a thrill.

I loved Brett Favre for the very same reason.

Now the torch has passed.

Doomsday101 · 07-13-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaTunaNostra

Well, I try to catch every game he plays. I don't like missing them, as watching VIck is like watching history unfold.

Haven't always been able to do so, but I have tivo and Sunday ticket so I have seem many of his games. Most of them in fact. This was one I had missed, which I hadn't wanted to, as Terry Glenn also played in it.

Those stats are qualified by many things. He did enter the league at age 20. He hasn't had quality receivers, and when Peerless moved over from Buffalo, Vick then got hurt.

He has not played behind an exceptional pass protection line yet.

He has not played with a good defense.

He has had to be "the offsnse", to carry it on his very young shoulders.

This means that accuracy has been sacrificed to play making, to trying to make things happen.

[View Full Quote]

I think Vick is a great athlete who is a very dangerous player but sorry I think his passing skills need a lot of work. I have no anti or pro feelings towards Vick so just looking from an unbiased view point I see a guy who still has a lot of work ahead of him to be a top NFL QB. I'm not saying this won't happen it very well could and maybe this new system will be the perfect fit for him but I will not judge the greatness of a QB based on his ability to run the ball and again if he keeps running like some RB he will not last very long in this league.

ChrisFul · 07-13-2004

One game does not an accurate QB make.

Most often times than not, Vick's completions came to wide open recievers, and most of the deep balls were a result of him scrambling around until someone came wideass open. Ive seen him thread the needle a few times, but he was also the king of the overthrown pass.

LaTunaNostra · 07-13-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doomsday101

I think Vick is a great athlete who is a very dangerous player but sorry I think his passing skills need a lot of work. I have no anti or pro feelings towards Vick so just looking from an unbiased view point I see a guy who still has a lot of work ahead of him to be a top NFL QB. I'm not saying this won't happen it very well could and maybe this new system will be the perfect fit for him but I will not judge the greatness of a QB based on his ability to run the ball and again if he keeps running like some RB he will not last very long in this league.

You've made your feelings known on "mobile quarterbacks" enough times for me to feel you are incapable of "unbiasedly" evaluating any QB who can get out of his own way. You're a prime example of the inability to see how the skills and assets of the prototype QB has changed, and an example of how the needed attribute of "mobility" is viewed as "subtractive", not additive by those enslaved by anachronistic views.

I honestly can't read anything you have to say on the topic and feel it is coming from anything like an "open" mind. It's just been too much bashing of "mobility" from you, ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

Sorry, but that is the price we all pay for climbing atop the soap box.

Doomsday101 · 07-13-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaTunaNostra

You've made your feelings known on "mobile quarterbacks" enough times for me to feel you are incapable of "unbiasedly" evaluating any QB who can get out of his own way. You're a prime example of the inability to see how the skills and assets of the prototype QB has changed, and an example of how the needed attribute of "mobility" is viewed as "subtractive", not additive by those enslaved by anachronistic views.

I honestly can't read anything you have to say on the topic and feel it is coming from anything like an "open" mind. It's just been too much bashing of "mobility" from you, ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

Sorry, but that is the price we all pay for climbing atop the soap box.

I have no problem at all with a QB who has mobility I think it is a great asset to have but it is not the biggest asset and if by running or taking off to quickly results in plays being busted then it is a problem. Using mobility to buy more time is a great thing, using the ability to run to pick up a 1st down to keep the chains moving is a great thing but taking off on the run and not protecting yourself is foolish.

Hostile · 07-13-2004

Just a little something to end this speculation about whether Vick could even be obtained.

************************************************** **************

These guys are untouchable
Tom Gatto / \
Posted: 17 hours ago

If Shaquille O'Neal can be traded, does that mean anyone in pro sports can be dealt? Not quite. Ten players who can be considered untouchable:

1. Tim Duncan, Spurs. San Antonio isn't about to do anything with its best player, who is a star on and off the court and who turned 28 in April. There's an excellent chance he'll be a Spur for life.

2. Peyton Manning, Colts. Indy has 34.5 million reasons (the size of Manning's recent signing bonus) not to move its franchise QB, even though it could receive a boatload of players for him.

Michael Vick is the Falcons' future. (Jamie Squire / GettyImages)

3. Albert Pujols, Cardinals. St. Louis has committed long-term to Pujols, and the team would have a difficult time getting enough in return for one of the game's top hitters.

4. Michael Vick, Falcons. Atlanta can't afford to part with its young star, who already has so much influence over the team's record -- and bottom line.

5. Martin Brodeur, Devils. The two-time defending Vezina Trophy winner is a huge part of the franchise's nucleus, and one of the few irreplaceable players in the NHL.

6. Derek Jeter, Yankees. George Steinbrenner probably has begun planning ceremonies to retire Jeter's No. 2 jersey. Plus, Jeter's contract is prohibitive to a lot of teams.

7. Kevin Garnett, Timberwolves. The T-wolves might be Bulls Northwest if not for the league MVP. Latrell Sprewell isn't going to pack 'em into the Target Center the way K.G. does.

8. Tom Brady, Patriots. Unlike Kurt Warner, this two-time Super Bowl quarterback is secure on his team. Brady and Boston seem to be a perfect fit.

9. Mark Prior, Cubs. Would you risk trading someone with that arm and mound presence? Cubs management certainly knows it can't let him go.

10. Joe Sakic, Avalanche. Colorado's captain, like Steve Yzerman and Mario Lemieux, is a star center who likely will be with one franchise his entire career.

**BrAinPaiNt** · 07-13-2004

Maybe it is me...but I think Tom Brady does not belong on that list.

That is not saying I do not think he is good....I just think he can be replaced easily compared to the others.

Tio · 07-13-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrAinPaiNt

Maybe it is me...but I think Tom Brady does not belong on that list.

That is not saying I do not think he is good....I just think he can be replaced easily compared to the others.

Id replace tom brady with randy moss....