'08 Draft- McFadden gone - and your next pick is???

[peplaw06]

Originally Posted by J-DOG

My only thing is that if we are drafting in the top 5 picks next year and Mcfadden in gone are we seriously going to take a guy like Deshaun Jackson?
I know there are no sure things when you talk about the draft but I would have a hard time drafting a Jackson over a Bowman if we are drafting in the top 5.
Desmond Howard and Peter Warrick come to mind when thinking about that.
I know Santana Moss and Steve Smith are great wr's but those guys were not drafted in the top 5 of thier drafts either.
I would think you would try your best to get a player who is as close to measuring up to the physical prototype as you can before you roll the dice on a wr who may be to small to make it at the next level...especially that high in the draft.
All things being equal(speed/production) I go with the player who is bigger, no matter what position it is.

I don't think we'd take Jackson in the Top 5 if we pick there. I'm thinking more about looking at him in the 20s.

Originally Posted by Bizwah

Again, we're talking about 20 pounds here. That's a HUGE difference.

Steve Smith, Santana Moss, Marvin Harrison, were all smaller in college...but they never were listed as small as Jackson. In fact, they were listed 15-20 pounds heavier.

There isn't a good track record of players under 175 pounds in the NFL.

If Jackson shows up to the combine weighing around 185....then, I'd consider drafting him high.

At 166, he's not worth a first round pick....period.

He's already at 172. So it's 13 pounds to 185. And you know he's going to put on more.

I just don't get how you can completely not consider a guy, then magically start to consider him because he puts on 10 pounds. If he can play, he can play. He has to be in the conversation.

Originally Posted by tomson75

I'm pretty sure the Jackson knows he small. I'm also pretty sure he'll do his best to rectify that. His frame could easily support another 20-25 lbs and retain that speed. We'll see.

All we're doing here is projecting what we think could happen. I'd be willing to project that Jackson will measure up better come next April then he did last year when he weighed in at 166. If he does, and retains that speed, IMO he'd be the best reciever in the draft...as of what I've seen thus far.

There's to much time between now and then to write off anyone, expecially a player as dynamic as Jackson.

Who knows, hopefully someone around 6'2" 220 steps up there game and becomes a major player. It happens every year. Until then, Jackson (or what I'm hoping Jackson can become, is my guy at WR.

Originally Posted by Bizwah

Todd Pinkston had the frame too.....some guys just can't add weight or strength.

I'm not going to totally write off Jackson. But I can't see how anyone right now, can look at him as a can't miss prospect.

He has a huge deficiency in size. That can be improved, but until he does, he's not a first round prospect, IMO.

I can point to guys with prototypical size who didn't make it too, for whatever reason. And Todd Pinkston wasn't half the playmaker that Jackson is. There are no guarantees in the NFL. You have to look at the whole package, then make your determination.

Originally Posted by Alexander

If you do that, I think it negates the whole idea of getting the extra first to begin with.

You do that to get an extra choice which allows you either a clean shot at a special player or the ability to move up for a special player.

Hopefully we are in a position talent-wise next year that we don't have to spend the first round choices on two players unless it is a luxury not a necessity.

And Slaton is like a cut-rate version of Reggie Bush. I would not waste the time.

I'm with you. I think the Cleveland pick is house money. It's easier to gamble when you're playing with house money.

[Bizwah]

Originally Posted by peplaw06

I just don't get how you can completely not consider a guy, then magically start to consider him because he puts on 10 pounds. If he can play, he can play. He has to be in the conversation.

Simple....I never said I completely wouldn't "consider" him. I wouldn't "consider" him in round one at 166.

Todd Pinkston and Brandon Lloyd could play in college. So could a lot of other guys.

Size matters in the NFL. Line up Jackson against DeAngelo Hall. Hall would cream him off the route..........

I can point to guys with prototypical size who didn't make it too, for whatever reason. And Todd Pinkston wasn't half the playmaker that Jackson is. There are no guarantees in the NFL. You have to look at the whole package, then make your determination.

You're right that there are no guarantees in the NFL. You HAVE to try to hedge your bets the best that you can. That's why taking a 166 pound WR in round one is a bad idea.

You guys look at him and assume that he'll put on the weight and still retain his speed and quickness. I thought Ginn would do the same. He was 175 last summer and never seemed to add the needed weight. I don't think he'll succeed as a WR until he gains some weight and strength.

Name one successful player in the NFL under 170......

[burmafrd]

It is impossible to say that he can add 20 lbs and not lose speed and quickness. Its impossible to say that he can't. BUT you are not going to draft a guy that you know is going to have to add a fair amount of weight to be able to hold his own. THAT is too much of a risk. Certainly not in the first rd.

[Alexander]

Originally Posted by Bizwah

Name one successful player in the NFL under 170......

There comes a certain point and time when size does matter.

With a top draft choice, it will.

We have seen less push players down draft boards.

Unless Jackson has magically transformed his body and put on much more mass (and not just a few pounds), he's not going to be a top choice.

That won't stop him from being a good player. It just will keep him from being a top choice and inserted into an alpha role.

[theogt]

Originally Posted by peplaw06

How tall is he then?

Not sure. Maybe 5'11" at most. Looks about 5'10" or so. He's about 5-6 inches shorter than Randy Moss.

[peplaw06]

Originally Posted by theogt

Not sure. Maybe 5'11" at most. Looks about 5'10" or so. He's about 5-6 inches shorter than Randy Moss.

Well, I'm glad you can tell so much from a still of a video. Until proven wrong, I'll give the benefit of the doubt to what he's listed as on every website or description of him that I've seen.

Apparently, the height isn't the issue anyway. If he's shorter, then he's a "more solid" 172, right? He's still taller than some great WRs.

[theogt]

Originally Posted by peplaw06

Well, I'm glad you can tell so much from a still of a video. Until proven wrong, I'll give the benefit of the doubt to what he's listed as on every website or description of him that I've seen.

Apparently, the height isn't the issue anyway. If he's shorter, then he's a "more solid" 172, right? He's still taller than some great WRs.

Uhhh...ok. You can go on believing he is six foot if you like. So how about that property? Or how about a nice bridge?

[peplaw06]

Originally Posted by Bizwah

Simple....I never said I completely wouldn't "consider" him. I wouldn't "consider" him in round one at 166.

Look I understand being skeptical about a guy so slight. but at what point does playmaking ability outweigh a guy's stature? If he wins the Heisman and weighs 172, do you consider him in Round 1 then? Don't you think that by refusing to look at a guy who is one of the most explosive in the NCAA simply because he's a couple pounds light is a little close-minded?

Todd Pinkston and Brandon Lloyd could play in college. So could a lot of other guys.

I don't think those guys were Heisman candidates.

Size matters in the NFL. Line up Jackson against DeAngelo Hall. Hall would cream him off the route..........

You could say the same thing about Ginn, but someone picked him in the Top 10. With the pass interference rules being more strict size matters less in today's league IMO.

[peplaw06]

Originally Posted by theogt

Uhhh...ok. You can go on believing he is six foot if you like. So how about that property? Or how about a nice bridge?

Yeah... nevermind. I'll take your word over everyone else, because you showed a still of a video. Can you tell how much he weighs too? What is it, like 140? I know you have that superhuman ability to be able to tell how tall a guy is from seeing him on TV, does it work for weight too? You know, the camera adds 10 pounds... I hope you're taking that into account.

[McCordsville Cowboy]

Ill take Jake Long...

Jackson and Mario are a poor mans Ted Ginn with less highlights. Slaton is too small, McFadden might be gone

[theogt]

Originally Posted by peplaw06

Yeah... nevermind. I'll take your word over everyone else, because you showed a still of a video. Can you tell how much he weighs too? What is it, like 140? I know you have that superhuman ability to be able to tell how tall a guy is from seeing him on TV, does it work for weight too? You know, the camera adds 10 pounds... I hope you're taking that into account.

You do realize we know exactly how tall Moss is right (6'4")? And that Jackson is standing right beside him? Moss could put his chin on Jackson's head if he stood up straight.

But why believe your own eyes when a college website lists his height? I mean they never stretch the truth right?

[Bizwah]

Originally Posted by peplaw06

Look I understand being skeptical about a guy so slight. but at what point does playmaking ability outweigh a guy's stature? If he wins the Heisman and weighs 172, do you consider him in Round 1 then? Don't you think that by refusing to look at a guy who is one of the most explosive in the NCAA simply because he's a couple pounds light is a little close-minded?

I haven't seen anyone hyping the guy for a Heismann. But there have been a ton of great "college" players to have won a Heismann that have done NOTHING in the NFL.

So, he can very well be a great college player at 172 (although every single thing I've read has him at 166), but I have serious reservations about his NFL potential.

No, I don't think it's "close-minded"....I think I'm being realistic and careful. I hope our scouting department is the same way.

You could say the same thing about Ginn, but someone picked him in the Top 10. With the pass interference rules being more strict size matters less in today's league IMO.

I think picking Ginn in round one was a bad idea.

As far as when his ability out trumps his measurables....Round 2.......I think drafting a player as small as Jackson is too big of a risk in round one. I'll admit....I've only watched his highlight reels. I haven't seen him in a game.....maybe my mind will change....I plan on watching him as much as possible this season.

[peplaw06]

Originally Posted by theogt

You do realize we know exactly how tall Moss is right (6'4")? And that Jackson is standing right beside him? Moss could put his chin on Jackson's head if he stood up straight.

But why believe your own eyes when a college website lists his height? I mean they never stretch the truth right?

How do you know exactly how tall Moss is? Where did you get that info? Was it a "website?"

And you certainly can't make a comparison from a television camera. You have no idea what is going on outside the camera. You don't know the angle the camera is shooting from, you don't know if they're equidistant from the lens. You don't know what kind of shoes Moss or Jackson are wearing.... etc.

Certainly you don't think a camera = seeing it with your own eyes. Even you can't believe that.

How much does he weigh?

[peplaw06]

Originally Posted by Bizwah

I haven't seen anyone hyping the guy for a Heismann.

http://heismanpundit.com/?sectionid=6

But there have been a ton of great "college" players to have won a Heismann that have done NOTHING in the NFL.

So, he can very well be a great college player at 172 (although every single thing I've read has him at 166), but I have serious reservations about his NFL potential.

No, I don't think it's "close-minded"....I think I'm being realistic and careful. I hope our scouting department is the same way.

Sure there have been Heisman winners do nothing in the NFL... Just like I said, nothing is guaranteed.

And sorry, but if he wins the Heisman -- with guys like McFadden, Booty, Brennan, and Slaton vying for the award -- and you don't consider him at all in the first round because he weighs 166 or 172, that would be the epitome of close-mindedness.

There are concerns with just about every single pick in the draft. Calvin Johnson was about the only player in this year's draft who didn't have significant concerns attached to him. And the year before, everyone had issues, even Reggie Bush. But he was a great playmaker, and that outweighed the concerns in most people's minds.

I think picking Ginn in round one was a bad idea.

As far as when his ability out trumps his measurables....Round 2.......I think drafting a player as small as Jackson is too big of a risk in round one. I'll admit....I've only watched his highlight reels. I haven't seen him in a game.....maybe my mind will change....I plan on watching him as much as possible this season.

If all you have seen is highlights, I don't blame you for being skeptical because of his measurables. I'm just not going to give your opinion much weight FYI.

[Bob Sacamano]

Originally Posted by peplaw06

Well, I'm glad you can tell so much from a still of a video. Until proven wrong, I'll give the benefit of the doubt to what he's listed as on every website or description of him that I've seen.

Apparently, the height isn't the issue anyway. If he's shorter, then he's a "more solid" 172, right? He's still taller than some great WRs.

I wouldn't trust what a player's school lists them as, West Virginia gave their WR this year 3 inches in height, can't remember his name, but he was just 6 feet, and WVU listed him at 6'3"