We need to draft an Olineman from Hawaii

[theogt]

Originally Posted by Bob Sacamano

to measure how quick a player is, you subtract his short-shuttle time by his 40 time, any differential .50 and above is considered pretty quick, that is the formula I got a couple of years ago from a Pat Kirwan, NFL.com article, and which is best applied to linemen

Kirwan's point was that the differential showed how much a player's quickness varied from his 40 time. His point was that if you're going to measure quickness, you should not include 40 time.

[Bob Sacamano]

Originally Posted by theogt

Kirwan's point was that the differential showed how much a player's quickness varied from his 40 time. His point was that if you're going to measure quickness, you should not include 40 time.

his formula was subtracting the short-shuttle from the 40 time and the differential is what you're looking at because that shows if a player is quick, or if he's fast, anything .50 and over is considered more quick than fast

[Teague31]

Originally Posted by Big Dakota

Hawaii OLman are a little like Texas Tech OLman. They throw the ball so darn much it's hard to tell what you have and how their talent will translates to the pros.

[theogt]

Originally Posted by Bob Sacamano

his formula was subtracting the short-shuttle from the 40 time and the differential is what you're looking at because that shows if a player is quick, or if he's fast, anything .50 and over is considered more quick than fast

His point was to show that just because a player has a bad 40 time doesn't mean he isn't quick.

For example

Player A has a 5.00 40-time and a 4.5 shuttle time, giving him a differential of .50.

Player B has a 4.5 40-time and a 4.01 shuttle time, giving him a differential of .51.

Which player is quicker? Obviously Player B, who has a larger differential is quicker. The problem is that 40-time and shuttle times are not perfectly proportional.

I've got the article. His overall point was to show that some players are "quick" even though they have a slow 40. In other words, when you want to determine whether a player is "quick" don't look at his 40 time.

[Bob Sacamano]

Originally Posted by theogt

when you want to determine whether a player is "quick" don't look at his 40 time.

I'm not looking at his 40 time!! I'm looking at the differential

[Bob Sacamano]

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geu75JPBRGQ0cBuF9XNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE3OGlmb2V lBGNvbG8DZQRsA1dTMQRwb3MDMgRzZWMDc3IEdnRpZANERlI1X zE0Mg--/SIG=12dmh5mkg/EXP=1175817673/**http%3a//forum.signonsandiego.com/printthread.php%3ft=43317

Then I looked for athletes with average-to-below average 40-yard times for their position who make up for the lack of long straight speed with exceptional quickness and change of direction. As we all know, unless you're on the kickoff team or running a "go" route at the wide receiver position, it's almost impossible to find a spot in a football game where you can identify a 40-yard dash. A lack of great straight speed can easily be offset by the ability to explode out of a stance, change direction in five yards, explode again for 10 yards and then change direction again, all while keeping your weight down. The short shuttle can be a much better indication of your ability to play football fast. I didn't say an indication of the ability to play football, but rather of the ability to play football fast.

I handled the speed training for the players when I was with the Jets for three years back in the early 90s. My general rule of thumb for comparing speed (the 40-yard dash time) to quickness and change of direction (the 20-yard short-shuttle test) was to take the 40 time and subtract the short-shuttle time and expect a 0.5 difference. For example, a player with a 5.0 40 time needs to run a 4.5 short shuttle to get the 0.5 differential. Simply stated, his speed and his quickness relate to each other. A man who runs a 4.4 40 and a 4.4 short shuttle is really a guy with straight-line speed who may not play very fast because of a lack of quickness. He is often referred to as a guy with "track speed." Conversely, an athlete who runs an average time of 4.7 in the 40 but can hit the short shuttle in 3.9 -- significantly better than the 0.5 differential -- can overcome his average speed with great quickness and change of direction.

again, this formula is measuring quickness

[lspain1]

Hmmmmmm....there seems to be a lot of debate on this guy. I recommend that Cowboyszone send me "on-site" for two weeks to make a first hand evaluation on Maui. I suggest some drills to evaluate Satele:

1. pipeline surfing to check on courage and the ability to do the "swim" move

2. the bikini run on the beach to evaluate his judgement and quickness off the mark

3. and finally the "juggling fire at night" drill on the beach with a large roast pig and poi to evaluate his dexterity

I pledge to witness these drills personally and provide a comprehensive report if the Zoners will simply provide the necessary funds. I'm willing to make the sacrifice here for the good of the Zone!

[Teague31]

Originally Posted by lspain1

Hmmmmmm....there seems to be a lot of debate on this guy. I recommend that Cowboyszone send me "on-site" for two weeks to make a first hand evaluation on Maui. I suggest some drills to evaluate Satele:

1. pipeline surfing to check on courage and the ability to do the "swim" move

2. the bikini run on the beach to evaluate his judgement and quickness off the mark

3. and finally the "juggling fire at night" drill on the beach with a large roast pig and poi to evaluate his dexterity

I pledge to witness these drills personally and provide a comprehensive report if the Zoners will simply provide the necessary funds. I'm willing to make the sacrifice here for the good of the Zone!

[silverbear]

Originally Posted by Bob Sacamano

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geu75JPBRGQ0cBuF9XNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE3OGlmb2V lBGNvbG8DZQRsA1dTMQRwb3MDMgRzZWMDc3IEdnRpZANERlI1X zE0Mg--/SIG=12dmh5mkg/EXP=1175817673/**http%3a//forum.signonsandiego.com/printthread.php%3ft=43317

[View Full Quote]Then I looked for athletes with average-to-below average 40-yard times for their position who make up for the lack of long straight speed with exceptional quickness and change of direction. As we all know, unless you're on the kickoff team or running a "go" route at the wide receiver position, it's almost impossible to find a spot in a football game where you can identify a 40-yard dash. A lack of great straight speed can easily be offset by the ability to explode out of a stance, change direction in five yards, explode again for 10 yards and then change direction again, all while keeping your weight down. The short shuttle can be a much better indication of your ability to play football fast. I didn't say an indication of the ability to play football, but rather of the ability to play football fast.

I handled the speed training for the players when I was with the Jets for three years back in the early 90s. My general rule of thumb for comparing speed (the 40-yard dash time) to quickness and change of direction (the 20-yard short-shuttle test) was to take the 40 time and subtract the short-shuttle time and expect a 0.5 difference. For example, a player with a 5.0 40 time needs to run a 4.5 short shuttle to get the 0.5 differential. Simply stated, his speed and his quickness relate to each other. A man who runs a 4.4 40 and a 4.4 short shuttle is really a guy with straight-line speed who may not play very fast because of a lack of quickness. He is often referred to as a guy with "track speed." Conversely, an athlete who runs an average time of 4.7 in the 40 but can hit the short shuttle in 3.9 -- significantly better than the 0.5 differential -- can overcome his average speed with great quickness and change of direction.

again, this formula is measuring quickness

And of course, Pat Kirwan is well-known as THE guru of workout numbers... if he says it, it's gold... that's why he's sought after by many teams, to be their director of personnel...

I never would have figured you to be puffing the pet theories of some MEDIOT, bud... bluntly, if there was any substance to Kirwan's little equations, they'd be the standard that teams use in personnel evaluation...

I guess you think KC Joyner has the game of football all figured out, too...

[Bob Sacamano]

Originally Posted by silverbear

And of course, Pat Kirwan is well-known as THE guru of workout numbers... if he says it, it's gold... that's why he's sought after by many teams, to be their director of personnel...

I never would have figured you to be puffing the pet theories of some MEDIOT, bud... bluntly, if there was any substance to Kirwan's little equations, they'd be the standard that teams use in personnel evaluation...

I guess you think KC Joyner has the game of football all figured out, too...

thanks for sharing

[theogt]

Originally Posted by Bob Sacamano

again, this formula is measuring quickness

I think you're having trouble reading. Look at this:

Originally Posted by Kirwan

Then I looked for athletes with average-to-below average 40-yard times for their position who make up for the lack of long straight speed with exceptional quickness and change of direction.

Kirwan is looking at the shuttle time to see if a player that doesn't have "long straight speed" (which is measured by the 40 time) can make up for that deficiency by having exceptional quickness (which is measured by the shuttle time). Kirwan's entire point is that "quickness" is measured by the shuttle time, rather than the 40.

The difference between 40 time and shuttle time doesn't measure quickness. The shuttle time measures quickness. The differential just measures their quickness relative to their 40 time.

[Bob Sacamano]

Originally Posted by theogt

Kirwan's entire point is that "quickness" is measured by the shuttle time, rather than the 40.

his point is that you don't have to have a great 40 time, that you can make up for it w/ quickness and explosion, which the .5 differential represents

from the article:

A man who runs a 4.4 40 and a 4.4 short shuttle is really a guy with straight-line speed who may not play very fast because of a lack of quickness.

Originally Posted by theogt

The difference between 40 time and shuttle time doesn't measure quickness. The shuttle time measures quickness. The differential just measures their quickness relative to their 40 time.

and if relative to their slow 40, that they are quick, what does that tell us?

[big dog cowboy]

Originally Posted by Bob Sacamano

we need to draft an Olineman from Hawaii

Originally Posted by Big Dakota

Hawaii OLman are a little like Texas Tech OLman. They throw the ball so darn much it's hard to tell what you have and how their talent will translates to the pros.

Originally Posted by Bob Sacamano

true, but at least they are prepared to play in space and these guys have the talent to do it well

So does that mean they can play in the NFL or not. Additionally, can they run block?

[theogt]

Originally Posted by Bob Sacamano

his point is that you don't have to have a great 40 time, that you can make up for it w/ quickness and explosion, which the .5 differential represents

and if relative to their slow 40, that they are quick, what does that tell us?

Ok, summer. Let me ask you this:

We have a hypothetical player. Let's call this player Bob. Bob has a 5.5 40 time. That's pretty slow, right? Of course it is. Now bob also has a 5.4 shuttle time. That's pretty slow, right? Of course it is.

But what is his 40/shuttle differential? 0.1. So what does that tell us? Does that tell us he's quick? Does that tell us he's slow? Does that tell us anything meaningful?

The differential only tells us his shuttle-time relative to his 40 time. Does it tell us whether a player is quick? No. Does it tell us whether a player is slow? No.

[Bob Sacamano]

Originally Posted by theogt

The differential only tells us his shuttle-time relative to his 40 time.

and why did Kirwan take that into account?