VIDEO COMPARISON: The Phillips 3-4 vs The Parcells 3-4

[superpunk]

Originally Posted by theogt

Looks like a 2-gap read and react assignment where they weren't "allowed" to just get up field. If you're required to allow the O-line to set up and take you head on man-to-man fully prepared, that's not exactly the situation we're talking about and it's certainly not conducive to the pass-rush.

It's that split second at the snap where a pass-rush can fail or succeed. If the D-line can beat the O-line before it gets set-up ready to block by just a milisecond, it can be more effective. That's the problem with 2-gap vs. 1-gap slanting.

Wade talked about this during the mini-camp. During the season Spears wouldn't use his athleticism/quickness to beat the blocker. That was because of the 2-gap assignment. That's what you're seeing in the first play.

No doubt that's part of it.

What you're also seeing in those clips is Marcus Spears and Chris Canty get absolutely stonewalled, even when they're going for it. My blind homerism tells me to excuse their lack of push, or pass rushing ability with "scheme", but the cycnic in me won't allow it. Their skills on display, just in those clips were so feeble that the Guards and Tackles taking them on expended what looks like minimal effort to keep them from pushing in. That can't be absolved with a fuzzy two-gap blanket.

[theogt]

Originally Posted by superpunk

No doubt that's part of it.

What you're also seeing in those clips is Marcus Spears and Chris Canty get absolutely stonewalled, even when they're going for it. My blind homerism tells me to excuse their lack of push, or pass rushing ability with "scheme", but the cycnic in me won't allow it. Their skills on display, just in those clips were so feeble that the Guards and Tackles taking them on expended what looks like minimal effort to keep them from pushing in. That can't be absolved with a fuzzy two-gap blanket.

Ware got stonewalled on that play by a tackle. He must suck too.

McNabb had 3-4 seconds to throw the ball -- holding it beyond that would have resulted in a sack. That's plenty of time for a QB to get the ball out but it's not like he was standing around unhindered for 4-6 seconds. Spears, Canty, and Ware all collapsed the pocket onto McNabb.

It was a play-action so it's not like they were going to be attempting a swim or spin-move to get to the QB. Overpowering the O-line was their only option on that play and they did exactly that -- they pushed the line into the QB. McNabb's a good QB. He drops back very far (very quickly) and gets the ball out quick when he makes a decision. If it had been numerous other QBs they might have folded instead of getting the dump-off out before the pocket collapsed onto them. In fact, that's exactly what happened on the 2nd play of teh Chargers video -- the QB folded instead of getting the ball out.

[Ben_n_austin]

Originally Posted by Hostile

Best thread of the entire off season.

It does contain more substance than most, eh?

[BouncingCheese]

Originally Posted by superpunk

No doubt that's part of it.

What you're also seeing in those clips is Marcus Spears and Chris Canty get absolutely stonewalled, even when they're going for it. My blind homerism tells me to excuse their lack of push, or pass rushing ability with "scheme", but the cycnic in me won't allow it. Their skills on display, just in those clips were so feeble that the Guards and Tackles taking them on expended what looks like minimal effort to keep them from pushing in. That can't be absolved with a fuzzy two-gap blanket.

Really good points.

I think the only thing that can save Spears is his athleticism in use in this scheme; I think he gets bullied around sometimes, but more often than not he takes plays off. If Spears can stay excited about this defense even if HE is not the one making plays and somebody else is, then hopefully he can keep his motor running high and become productive. I know Spears half- it because he knew he wasn't going to do anything exciting in this D. Hopefully that can change. Chris Canty is talented but needs to get his ish together.

I think we are going to miss Kenyon Coleman in this new D.

[theogt]

Originally Posted by BouncingCheese

Really good points.

I think the only thing that can save Spears is his athleticism in use in this scheme; I think he gets bullied around sometimes, but more often than not he takes plays off. If Spears can stay excited about this defense even if HE is not the one making plays and somebody else is, then hopefully he can keep his motor running high and become productive. I know Spears half- it because he knew he wasn't going to do anything exciting in this D. Hopefully that can change. Chris Canty is talented but needs to get his ish together.

I think we are going to miss Kenyon Coleman in this new D.

It certainly looks that way in a 2-gap scheme.

[superpunk]

Originally Posted by theogt

Ware got stonewalled on that play by a tackle. He must suck too.

He also notched 11 sacks on the way to a great year. Don't be so trivial, theo - that ain't you.

The pocket dropped back to where it needed to be and held it's ground. That was a scenario we saw all too much last year. I am certainly looking forward to more blitzing, as SD definitely did that more than us, and with better results.

[theogt]

Originally Posted by superpunk

He also notched 11 sacks on the way to a great year. Don't be so trivial, theo - that ain't you.

The pocket dropped back to where it needed to be and held it's ground. That was a scenario we saw all too much last year. I am certainly looking forward to more blitzing, as SD definitely did that more than us, and with better results.

Yeah, when I first saw this thread, I knew "this" would be a problem. You can't judge a scheme or a player by a few plays. But on a play-action pass with a 2-gap read and react scheme I think it's very hard to criticize the pass-rush on that 1st play.

[BouncingCheese]

Originally Posted by theogt

It certainly looks that way in a 2-gap scheme.

The two-gap scheme means that it is the Linemans' responisbility to the gaps to his left and right should the running play come that way, correct?

If so, then I would be taking plays off if your only responisbility would be engage the lineman and then wait for the play to come to you.

That would be SOOOOOO booring to do if I was a lineman in this scheme... there is no action, only reaction, and on top of that you rarely get chances to attack the QB. Imagine Dwight Freeney almost exclusively being asked to rush the passer, and he only get a handful of sacks. Spears and the rest of our lineman had even fewer chances. I hope Spears was slacking off, because if he wasn't he was a bust.

[superpunk]

Originally Posted by theogt

Yeah, when I first saw this thread, I knew "this" would be a problem. You can't judge a scheme or a player by a few plays. But on a play-action pass with a 2-gap read and react scheme I think it's very hard to criticize the pass-rush on that 1st play.

Did you ever really see anything different out of those two?

Originally Posted by BouncingCheese

That would be SOOOOOO booring to do if I was a lineman in this scheme... there is no action, only reaction, and on top of that you rarely get chances to attack the QB. Imagine Dwight Freeney almost exclusively being asked to rush the passer, and he only get a handful of sacks. Spears and the rest of our lineman had even fewer chances. I hope Spears was slacking off, because if he wasn't he was a bust.

This is interesting line of thought.

No matter what he's asked to do, on the football field, shouldn't he be giving it his all? Idealism? Maybe. But he expressed a willingness to do anything when he was drafted, to take out the trash, as it were. Regardless of scheme, shouldn't you play the hell out of whatever it is you are asked to do?

[theogt]

Originally Posted by superpunk

Did you ever really see anything different out of those two?

It's hard to say. I haven't broken down every play and tried to make a guess of what the call was and given up a thumbs up or down or sideways on each player regarding pass-rush. That's largely a result of it being incredibly hard to tell sometimes whether it's a 2-gap or a 1-gap call. Sometimes its easy to tell and sometimes there's a grey area. I might do that this weekend. Regardless, Wade said he saw more "plays" outta Spears in this mini-camp than in all of 2006.

When does the season start again?

[TEK2000]

Originally Posted by BouncingCheese

Cool video.. Wow, I noticed on the first stunt against the steelers that H. Miller was open because of Phillips leaving to blitz ( I understand that is what happens when you blitz or stunt) but If a faster reciever was there and Big Ben was able to see it the reciever could have gashed the D.

I see it a little differently BouncingCheese.

Miller is only open AFTER the ball is in the air.

He's actually double covered by the Safety and Corner until Big Ben launches the duck up into the air.

Nonetheless, when you blitz, you put more pressure on your secondary to cover in man to man. Its definitely a risk/reward situation. If you're going to blitz and get tricky with the DLine, there are going to be certain times when the blitz fails and you give up a play.

[superpunk]

Originally Posted by theogt

It's hard to say. I haven't broken down every play and tried to make a guess of what the call was and given up a thumbs up or down or sideways on each player regarding pass-rush. That's largely a result of it being incredibly hard to tell sometimes whether it's a 2-gap or a 1-gap call. Sometimes its easy to tell and sometimes there's a grey area. I might do that this weekend. Regardless, Wade said he saw more "plays" outta Spears in this mini-camp than in all of 2006.

When does the season start again?

True enough. Hooray Spears and Canty!

[theogt]

Originally Posted by TEK2000

I see it a little differently BouncingCheese.

Kinda hard to take a post seriously after reading this.

Originally Posted by superpunk

True enough. Hooray Spears and Canty!

Hooray pants!

[TEK2000]

Originally Posted by theogt

Yeah, when I first saw this thread, I knew "this" would be a problem. You can't judge a scheme or a player by a few plays. But on a play-action pass with a 2-gap read and react scheme I think it's very hard to criticize the pass-rush on that 1st play.

My point of showing that play was for representation of what the 2006 Cowboys NORMALLY did when trying to attack the QB.
Send 4 rushers... the 3 down linemen and Ware (or Ellis).

My comparison between the 2 was merely to look at the SCHEME, not to judge the players.

(just wanted to make that clear)

[theogt]

Originally Posted by TEK2000

My point of showing that play was for representation of what the 2006 Cowboys NORMALLY did when trying to attack the QB.
Send 4 rushers... the 3 down linemen and Ware (or Ellis).

My comparison between the 2 was merely to look at the SCHEME, not to judge the players.

(just wanted to make that clear)

Oh, I completely understand and agree that for the most part what you saw on those plays is what you saw on every other play.