VIDEO COMPARISON: The Phillips 3-4 vs The Parcells 3-4

[5Stars]

Originally Posted by theogt

Compared to what? You can't ask, is it hot or cold without context? These are relative statements.

You two guys! Sheessh....

[superpunk]

Originally Posted by theogt

Compared to what? You can't ask, is it hot or cold without context? These are relative statements.

[theogt]

Originally Posted by 5Stars

You two guys! Sheessh....

Saturday mornings are for arguing about football. Much like Friday afternoons, Tuesday evenings, and Thursday mornings.

[adbutcher]

Originally Posted by superpunk

Probably shouldn't have said "all". But in almost any system, there will be defensive calls where a defensive linemen will have that 2 gap responsibility. It may rarely occur, but it does occur.

Even if you would have said some it would have been inaccurate because you are missing the point of two gapping versus one gapping.

By alignment Wade and Belicheck’s systems are a one gap system because it is impossible to play across the OL’s body with any kind of success as I pointed out earlier.

The only time they would give a two gap look is during a blitz or game or stunt. There are very few two gap teams left and imo for three reasons. It is a lot easier to teach one gap technique. The sizes of offensive linemen are enormous and you have to be totally foolhardy to think that a defensive lineman can win a head to head battle for an entire game. The only team running a counter trey offense is garbage. The only real inherit weakness to playing an attacking one gap defense is being susceptible to misdirection counters, traps, etc.
However, the benefit to a one gap system is primarily this. It dictates how the Offenses should block you and if you know how they should block you the pendulum swings in favor of the defense because now you are dictating. Last season we were dictated to which put a great strain on transitioning from playing the run to rushing the passer and moreso coverage responsibilities.

[TEK2000]

Originally Posted by superpunk

Probably shouldn't have said "all". But in almost any system, there will be defensive calls where a defensive linemen will have that 2 gap responsibility. It may rarely occur, but it does occur.

Jason Ferguson said that when he played under Parcells/Belichik with the Jets... they ran the 2-gap maybe 10 plays a game.

In 2006, every first and 2nd down was pretty much 2 gap assignment for the dlinemen.

This exactly what we are talking about. Having a 2 gap assignment does happen... but its VERY VERY rare in Wade Phillips' scheme (from what I have seen) but it was VERY VERY common with Pacells/Zimmer this past season.

You're trying to make it seem like EVERY player has to control the offensive lineman first then read the play and react... when that is not the case... especially in what the Chargers were doing last season.

Great post adbutcher! Very well said.

[superpunk]

Originally Posted by TEK2000

You're trying to make it seem like EVERY player has to control the offensive lineman first then read the play and react... when that is not the case... especially in what the Chargers were doing last season.

that's not what I'm trying to do at all, man. You're either good at making that transition or you're not. I can see where you guys are going with the opportunities and scheme things, but that's not the original line of thinking.

If Ware notches 18 sacks next year, is it because he became an infinitely better pass-rusher, or is it because he got more opportunities in a defense that blitzed twice as much as we did last year?

The scheme might make a player look better, because it puts him in a better position to make a highlight play, or gives him more opportunities to make a straightforward play rather than a read and react play, but it's not going to make the players any better at doing a thing. Our defensive linemen made that transition poorly. It is not an impossible situation for them, even though it may not have been ideal. But no amount of blustering changes the fact that they did what was asked of them poorly. The scheme can be criticized to no end - and so can their performance in it.

[theogt]

Originally Posted by superpunk

that's not what I'm trying to do at all, man. You're either good at making that transition or you're not. I can see where you guys are going with the opportunities and scheme things, but that's not the original line of thinking.

If Ware notches 18 sacks next year, is it because he became an infinitely better pass-rusher, or is it because he got more opportunities in a defense that blitzed twice as much as we did last year?

[View Full Quote]The scheme might make a player look better, because it puts him in a better position to make a highlight play, or gives him more opportunities to make a straightforward play rather than a read and react play, but it's not going to make the players any better at doing a thing. Our defensive linemen made that transition poorly. It is not an impossible situation for them, even though it may not have been ideal. But no amount of blustering changes the fact that they did what was asked of them poorly. The scheme can be criticized to no end - and so can their performance in it.

Our point is that it only appears that our linemen make the transition poorly because of the scheme. Just the same way that it would appear that Ware got better as a pass-rusher. You have to compare their abilities in the exact same scheme. Otherwise the comparison is useless.

Belicheck and Parcells do not have the same scheme, so comparing their players isn't helpful.

[dogberry]

Adbutcher, I'm curious which is the only team to run a "counter trey offense." Thanks in advance, Kent

[superpunk]

Originally Posted by theogt

Our point is that it only appears that our linemen make the transition poorly because of the scheme. Just the same way that it would appear that Ware got better as a pass-rusher. You have to compare their abilities in the exact same scheme. Otherwise the comparison is useless.

Belicheck and Parcells do not have the same scheme, so comparing their players isn't helpful.

You still don't get it. You're either good at a thing, or you're not.

They aren't.

[theogt]

Originally Posted by superpunk

You still don't get it. You're either good at a thing, or you're not.

They aren't.

Are New England's DEs better in a 2-gap? Before you answer this, you would have to know (1) when they played a 2-gap assignment, and (2) how well they performed while playing the 2-gap assignment.

They don't play a whole lot of 2-gap. They use it some, but not nearly as extensively as Parcells. So you can't look at New England's DEs overall performance and compare it to Dallas DEs. You can only compare similar scheme to similar scheme.

Unless you possess the knowledge outlined above, there's no way you can say "our guys suck" because you have nothing to compare our guys to.

[adbutcher]

Originally Posted by dogberry

Adbutcher, I'm curious which is the only team to run a "counter trey offense." Thanks in advance, Kent

I could be wrong but I think the skinz are the only team that consistently uses it in their play book. Also what I was alluding to when I said counter trey, is the use of misdirection to exploit when a defense relies on their DL getting up field on the snap of the ball.

[TEK2000]

Originally Posted by superpunk

that's not what I'm trying to do at all, man. You're either good at making that transition or you're not. I can see where you guys are going with the opportunities and scheme things, but that's not the original line of thinking.

If Ware notches 18 sacks next year, is it because he became an infinitely better pass-rusher, or is it because he got more opportunities in a defense that blitzed twice as much as we did last year?

[View Full Quote]The scheme might make a player look better, because it puts him in a better position to make a highlight play, or gives him more opportunities to make a straightforward play rather than a read and react play, but it's not going to make the players any better at doing a thing. Our defensive linemen made that transition poorly. It is not an impossible situation for them, even though it may not have been ideal. But no amount of blustering changes the fact that they did what was asked of them poorly. The scheme can be criticized to no end - and so can their performance in it.

This all goes back to fitting the scheme to the players' skills. If a players' skills don't suit what is being asked of them, then they are going to have a much lower success level. Some players can still do well in Parcells' scheme... but obviously Marcus Spears was not one of them. I'm just hoping that Wade's scheme will suit Spears much better so he can be a quality player for us.

Putting Roy Williams in coverage 95+% of the time is not a scheme that fits his skill set. (though the coaches were forced to do that because of the lack of skills by teammates)

Its like asking Dirk Nowitzki to play basketball exactly like Tim Duncan does... its just not going to work for him.

[TEK2000]

Originally Posted by superpunk

You still don't get it. You're either good at a thing, or you're not.

They aren't.

The run/pass transition is VERY VERY different from the 1 gap system and the 2 gap system.

1 gap, you're already shaded to 1 side of the olineman normally and you're only concern is 1 gap. In 2 gap, you've got to account for BOTH sides of the offensivelineman that is blocking you... so you have to engage the offensive lineman HEAD ON and THEN try to get around him.

You've got to be an absolutely physically dominant player in the 2 gap system. You can get by with good moves, agility, and technique in the 1 gap system.

[NextGenBoys]

Originally Posted by ENGCowboy

I thought the DL vs the run showed the most difference you can tell that all 3 down linemen are playing 2 gaps because the hit the line and stop so they can watch where the play develops to, this allowed Tiki to bump the play outside, something that seemed to happen a lot last season esp down the stretch. The Chargers didnt have to do this they just make the play come to them by breaking the line and getting after the runner, this means the OLB can still play a 2 gap and be responsible for the outside run but not have to be the main tackler on the play.

[View Full Quote]With pass rush it just seems Wades scheme is more team based, this guy will slant this way to create a bigger hole for tis other guy to get to the QB doesnt matter who it s but he designs holes in the OL more than blitzes and then sticks a rusher in the hole. BP's scheme said heres where I want you to rush beat the man infront of you and get to the QB so even if the player does beat his opposite man it has taken longer and the QB has already thrown the ball. We had pass rush last year it was just too slow because it relied solely on individual skill(why Ware excelled) to get to the QB not a team approach.

Thats a really good way to look at the difference between the two. Excellent point.