We need to go after a top DB, how many years has our secondary been crap now? - Dallas Cowboys Forum

Blitz88 · 01-10-2012

Every single season it seems like the exact same story, we have a great offense, and a decent defense up front, but our secondary is absolute crap. I mean it, every single season it seems to come down to our corners getting burnt. I do agree that you probably gotta take DeCastro if he's available, but my goodness we need to focus on getting good DB's, whether in the draft or FA.

I know Claibourne and Kilepatrick (SP?) are the top two CB's in the draft, but do not forget about Dennard, he may not get as much media hype as the other two, and he may not be as big, but this kid can play. Im just hoping, praying, that we get some decent corners for once, Newman has never been stellar IMO, and Jenkins has been pretty good, but obviously injury prone.

With the defense that Rob Ryan has installed in Dallas, you HAVE to have good cover corner's because of the man to man they must play with our blitzes, or else the same thing will keep happening over and over.... big pass plays.

That's why Rex has Revis and Cromartie in NY, those corners can actually stay with their man.

When was the last time we had a good secondary? It seems like over a lifetime ago. We've had guys like Alan Ball having to play a big role at CB for us, and it just fails over and over. Remember Jacque Reeves? *Shutters*

I'll admit, I'm not the smartest when it comes to what would be best for us in the long run in a draft, or what is the smart pick to take, etc... But my God, if we never get decent CB's, we will continue to come up short at the end of the season. Am I just an idiot on this?

**ABQCOWBOY** · 01-10-2012

Before we can decide to take a CB, I think we have to decide what kind of defense we are going to run with. The scheme of the defense should dictate what kind of CB you take.

For example, Dennard is a 5'10" guy. Claiborne is 6'0" and Kirkpatrick is 6'3". They are all going to bring something different to the table but in order for them to work for us, they have to bring what our defense needs to the table or they are not worth the pick.

BTW, welcome to the board and good first post.

tm1119 · 01-10-2012

There are plenty of good options in the 2nd at cb. Some I really don't value much below Kirkpatrick. If we can land Minnifield, Jenkins, Heyward, or Boykin in the 2nd I'd be very happy.

RoyTheHammer · 01-10-2012

I don't know that Dre is the second best CB in the draft, either. Alot of people are saying he's too stiff in the hips to be as effective in the pros. Seems like he would be a good press corner, but wouldn't be an elite cover guy.

Doomsday101 · 01-10-2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by tm1119

There are plenty of good options in the 2nd at cb. Some I really don't value much below Kirkpatrick. If we can land Minnifield, Jenkins, Heyward, or Boykin in the 2nd I'd be very happy.

True. I will say that Kirkpatrick size at 6'3" makes him a good match up with many of the big and tall WR in the NFL. Hard to cover a guy like 6'5" Calvin Johnson when you are a 5'10" CB

supercowboy8 · 01-10-2012

you can just say lets draft this CB because he is good.
You have to look at the system our defense runs and the system that CB best fits.
Take Kirkpatrick for example. He plays in a zone cover scheme in Alabama and has stiff hips. His size is nice but not for man cover. In Man cover you have to have fluid hips, great speed, and and smarts. Size isn't a major issue. Look at Revis and Flowers. Both are smaller CBs but are great man cover CBs because of speed and fluid hips.
Ryan likes to put his CBs on an island so that is man cover and not much in zone.

Top CBs for Dallas in this draft that are the best in man cover are
Morris Claiborne
Janoris Jenkins
Chase Minnifield
Brandon Boykin
Heyward.

Blitz88 · 01-10-2012

Supercowboy, couldnt you put Denard in that list as well? It seemed to me that he was great at man coverage, I thought that's why nobody threw the ball his way at Nebraska. Im probably completely off, once again I don't have the best knowledge with these things.

**BrAinPaiNt** · 01-10-2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by supercowboy8

you can just say lets draft this CB because he is good.
You have to look at the system our defense runs and the system that CB best fits.
Take Kirkpatrick for example. He plays in a zone cover scheme in Alabama and has stiff hips. His size is nice but not for man cover. In Man cover you have to have fluid hips, great speed, and and smarts. Size isn't a major issue. Look at Revis and Flowers. Both are smaller CBs but are great man cover CBs because of speed and fluid hips.
Ryan likes to put his CBs on an island so that is man cover and not much in zone.

Top CBs for Dallas in this draft that are the best in man cover are
Morris Claiborne
Janoris Jenkins
Chase Minnifield
Brandon Boykin
Heyward.

And the best guy is the one we are out of range of drafting in Morris.
The next guy is a character question.

The next two on the list however do have my interest and hopefully one of them will be sitting there when we are up in the 2nd round.

Doomsday101 · 01-10-2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by supercowboy8

you can just say lets draft this CB because he is good.
You have to look at the system our defense runs and the system that CB best fits.
Take Kirkpatrick for example. He plays in a zone cover scheme in Alabama and has stiff hips. His size is nice but not for man cover. In Man cover you have to have fluid hips, great speed, and and smarts. Size isn't a major issue. Look at Revis and Flowers. Both are smaller CBs but are great man cover CBs because of speed and fluid hips.
Ryan likes to put his CBs on an island so that is man cover and not much in zone.

Top CBs for Dallas in this draft that are the best in man cover are
Morris Claiborne
Janoris Jenkins
Chase Minnifield
Brandon Boykin
Heyward.

Kirkpatrick: He is not a zone guy

Man Coverage: Possesses prototypical size and strength combination to lock down NFL receivers on the outside. Long arms and attitude give him a chance to be very good in press role. Plays with natural bend and fair foot quickness in his backpedal. Hips are fluid for his size, opens them up quickly out of pedal to keep inside position while running down the sideline. Recovery speed from double-moves and pick plays is more than adequate, does not give much ground trailing on crossing routes. Can be overaggressive landing his punch in press, giving up inside position, losing his balance, or even falling down.

Zone Coverage: Mainly used in man, but flashes playmaking ability in zones, as well. Uses his size and length to close and wrap effectively after the catch. Reads quarterback when playing off, baits him to make the underneath throw then closes to make the interception or a big hit to dislodge ball from receiver. Uses length to knock away touch passes behind him and in front of the safety.

Ball Skills: Strong enough to win jump balls down the sideline or 50-50 balls over the middle. Good hand-eye coordination to knock away passes in front of receivers with off hand. Does not find the ball quickly when receiver turns to look, overruns plays too regularly. Gambles on interceptions instead of securing the tackle.

Run Support: Very physical outside, pushes aside smaller wideouts easily and does not back down from confrontations with larger players. Willing to add himself to piles. Good hustle and chase downfield to help teammates. Typically keeps outside leverage but will get aggressive, leaving the sideline vulnerable. Needs to consistently break down and keep his feet outside or NFL backs will evade him.

Tackling: Flashes pure strength to stop receivers and running backs in their tracks on the outside, should get stronger over time. Likes to throw his shoulder into receivers to force them out of bounds. Resorts to duck-and-swipe when unnecessary, which may work against college ballcarriers but will cause problems at the next level. Used on corner blitzes due to size/speed combination, forces a lot of quick throws. Willing to go for the strip, especially if ballcarrier already engaged. Negates special teams gunners on punts, stays with them with effort, physicality and speed.

Intangibles: Well-liked teammate who got the nickname "Swag" for his quiet but confident demeanor; referred to Texas as not having "swagger" during his college announcement press conference. Likes to talk on the field to teammates and get the crowd involved when at home. Praised for his strong will and work ethic. Won the team's Bart Starr Most Improved Player Award in the spring of 2011.

supercowboy8 · 01-10-2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blitz88

Supercowboy, couldnt you put Denard in that list as well? It seemed to me that he was great at man coverage, I thought that's why nobody threw the ball his way at Nebraska. Im probably completely off, once again I don't have the best knowledge with these things.

no from what I see from him he is best at zone, IMO he can be a man cover but not great and not worth a first round pick where he will go.

I saw games of his this year where bigger slower WRs go by him like Alshon Jeffery in the bowl game, over powered him at the line and went right by him for a big catch. Dennard is best when playing in zone.

supercowboy8 · 01-10-2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doomsday101

Kirkpatrick: He is not a zone guy

Go to other sites and see what they say.

Have you seen him play? Last night even, he was in zone for most of the game. He is great in man in college because of his size he can press any CB in college and by the time the WR gets away the QB is forced to throw the ball due to that great defense.
Kirkpatrick is much to long legged and stiff hipped to play man cover and be left on island vs NFL WRs. Just IMO about Kirkpatrick and have seen himplay ever game the last three years.

Here are some others insight
http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/...l&player=40798

Anyways Kirkpatrick is a big physical corver who will be best at play man zone in a cover 2 type system where he can play up and press but then release and not worry about him. IF he has to flip and run vs speed NFL WRs then he will get burnt.

xwalker · 01-10-2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blitz88

Every single season it seems like the exact same story, we have a great offense, and a decent defense up front, but our secondary is absolute crap. I mean it, every single season it seems to come down to our corners getting burnt. I do agree that you probably gotta take DeCastro if he's available, but my goodness we need to focus on getting good DB's, whether in the draft or FA.

I know Claibourne and Kilepatrick (SP?) are the top two CB's in the draft, but do not forget about Dennard, he may not get as much media hype as the other two, and he may not be as big, but this kid can play. Im just hoping, praying, that we get some decent corners for once, Newman has never been stellar IMO, and Jenkins has been pretty good, but obviously injury prone.

[View Full Quote]

Good first post.

For this offseason, I hope that they sign a decent FA CB AND draft a CB in the first 3 rounds.

They need the FA because it appears that Rob Ryan does not like to play young players. He played Alan Ball and cut Josh Thomas and Bryan McCann. I don't think that there is any possibility that Alan Ball is physically better than either Thomas or McCann.

The 2012 draft appears to have a long list of CBs that can probably play in the NFL; however, other than Claiborne, none of them appear to be a slam-dunk to be great.

I hope that they draft CBs with high upsides vs ones that are more ready now but have limited upsides. A player like Dennard might be more ready now, but his upside might be more limited than some others.

robert70x7 · 01-10-2012

Out of the cornerbacks that will be there within the first round, I would want them in this order: Claiborne, Kirkpatrick, Dennard. Jeffery owned Dennard, as previously mentioned and we need cornerbacks who can press up on receivers that will give the pass rush (or lack of) an extra second to get to the quarterback.

There are some decent cornerbacks available through free agency and I think the Cowboys could get significant upgrades over Newman/Ball with some of these names. These are a mixture of unrestricted and restricted, but most are UFA.

Jason Allen, Zack Bowman, Brandon Carr, Cortland Finnegan, Brent Grimes, Tim Jennings, Jacob Lacey, Richard Marshall, Tracy Porter, Carlos Rogers, Aaron Ross, Terrell Thomas, Greg Toler, Lardarius Webb, Eric Wright.

Webb is restricted and the least likely out of the bunch. I tried to limit the list to players that were under 30, although Rogers is the oldest at 30 years. Rashean Mathis is also free, but he had a bad year and is on the downswing.

If it came down between Dennard and DeCastro, I would take DeCastro. Second tier talent seems to be there for cornerbacks with Minnifield and Boykin off the top of my head.

Doomsday101 · 01-10-2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by supercowboy8

Go to other sites and see what they say.

Have you seen him play? Last night even, he was in zone for most of the game. He is great in man in college because of his size he can press any CB in college and by the time the WR gets away the QB is forced to throw the ball due to that great defense.
Kirkpatrick is much to long legged and stiff hipped to play man cover and be left on island vs NFL WRs. Just IMO about Kirkpatrick and have seen himplay ever game the last three years.

Here are some others insight
http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/...l&player=40798

Anyways Kirkpatrick is a big physical corver who will be best at play man zone in a cover 2 type system where he can play up and press but then release and not worry about him. IF he has to flip and run vs speed NFL WRs then he will get burnt.

Yes I have seen him play quite a bit and he is not a zone guy. You want to claim that fine but I have seen ample Bama games to know he is a man cover guy and did so last night as well, yes they will play zone but they will lock him in to man coverage as well.

CCBoy · 01-10-2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrAinPaiNt

And the best guy is the one we are out of range of drafting in Morris.
The next guy is a character question.

The next two on the list however do have my interest and hopefully one of them will be sitting there when we are up in the 2nd round.

I'd throw in for a second round cornerback, as well.