Peter King on KTCK

[cowboysooner]

Originally Posted by Doomsday101

Reminds me of that Gil Brandt once said. If you like a guy a lot then you go get him. Barron has not been one of my mock picks but if the scouts and coaches feel that strong about him and you need to move 3 spots to do it then make it happen.

I agree. But I will say that if we trade up in R1 and it costs #81, then we should look to trade back from #45 in all likelihood. I don't think picking twice in the 1st 50 then nothing else till 113 will work out well. You need 2 eventual good players and some role players in each draft, I think we maximize our chances of that by taking 2 swings rather than 1 higher priced swing.

[Randy White]

Originally Posted by mschmidt64

But I still don't like what the arrangement is. We are shorthanded by not having a legit football man. A Ron Wolf, a Jerry Reese, a Thomas Dimitroff, etc.

Ron Wolf = As a general manager he has 1 SB victory, 1 SB defeat in 9 years. Before that the only other time he was a GM it was in Tampa in the late 70's. He's been an assistant or " consultant " everywhere else he's worked ( including Dallas, by the way ).

Jerry Reese = Took over a Superbowl winning team built mostly under Ernie Accorsi's tenure in 2007. To his credit, he's done a great job not screwing it up and parlaying it into another SB victory. Let's see how long he'll be able to keep up the " good job ".

Thomas Dimitroff ? Really ? Exactly what has he done as a GM ?


This is the same ol' story of fans regurgitating same ol' stuff that has been said countless times. Substitute the names of " Ron Wolf " for " Jimmy Johnson ", Jerry Reese for " Scott Pioli ", and Dimitroff for, well, just about any name that has been thrown out there by BSPN over the years as the " next hot thing " ( I still remember that great GM from Pittsburgh named Tom Donahue ) and it's still the same crap that does not mean a damn thing.

[Doomsday101]

Originally Posted by Randy White

Ron Wolf = As a general manager he has 1 SB victory, 1 SB defeat in 9 years. Before that the only other time he was a GM it was in Tampa in the late 70's. He's been an assistant or " consultant " everywhere else he's worked ( including Dallas, by the way ).

Jerry Reese = Took over a Superbowl winning team built mostly under Ernie Accorsi's tenure in 2007. To his credit, he's done a great job not screwing it up and parlaying it into another SB victory. Let's see how long he'll be able to keep up the " good job ".

Thomas Dimitroff ? Really ? Exactly what has he done as a GM ?


[View Full Quote]This is the same ol' story of fans regurgitating same ol' stuff that has been said countless times. Substitute the names of " Ron Wolf " for " Jimmy Johnson ", Jerry Reese for " Scott Pioli ", and Dimitroff for, well, just about any name that has been thrown out there by BSPN over the years as the " next hot thing " ( I still remember that great GM from Pittsburgh named Tom Donahue ) and it's still the same crap that does not mean a damn thing.

I agree. I have seen guys who at one time were considered great GM and later considered hacks. Bottom line when a team does not win someone has to take the heat and that person is the GM. Dallas has not had the success fans expect and Jerry as the GM has to take the responsiblity and the heat for it.

[mschmidt64]

Originally Posted by Randy White

Ron Wolf = As a general manager he has 1 SB victory, 1 SB defeat in 9 years. Before that the only other time he was a GM it was in Tampa in the late 70's. He's been an assistant or " consultant " everywhere else he's worked ( including Dallas, by the way ).

Jerry Reese = Took over a Superbowl winning team built mostly under Ernie Accorsi's tenure in 2007. To his credit, he's done a great job not screwing it up and parlaying it into another SB victory. Let's see how long he'll be able to keep up the " good job ".

Thomas Dimitroff ? Really ? Exactly what has he done as a GM ?

[View Full Quote]This is the same ol' story of fans regurgitating same ol' stuff that has been said countless times. Substitute the names of " Ron Wolf " for " Jimmy Johnson ", Jerry Reese for " Scott Pioli ", and Dimitroff for, well, just about any name that has been thrown out there by BSPN over the years as the " next hot thing " ( I still remember that great GM from Pittsburgh named Tom Donahue ) and it's still the same crap that does not mean a damn thing.

Huh?

Our GM hasn't been able to construct a consistent playoff winner in 15 years. Whether that's because he's made bad decisions "breaking ties" or whatever you want to call it, or whether he's hired bad scouts and coaches, or whether he actually picks bad players (and the truth is, it's a combination of the three), no matter what, his personal performance is lacking.

You can't say "But we have a talented roster, the GM did his job."

No, he didn't. Our roster isn't that talented. It can't win more than 1 wild card playoff game in 15 years. And even since he apparently "learned his lessons" and hired Parcells and then has been doing "better" since then, the same results apply. One playoff win.

So somebody isn't doing a good enough job. And it's the GM. If it's the players fault, the GM picked the players. If it's the coaches, the GM picked the coaches. If it's the scouts, the GM picked the scouts. If someone else is picking the players, the GM picked the guy who is picking the players. THERE IS NO WAY TO ESCAPE CULPABILITY HERE. It's on the GM, end of story. He has to get the guys in places to succeed and he hasn't. In 15 years.

There are very few other teams who experienced that kind of draught. So don't roll your eyes and say "What has Jerry Reese or Thomas Dimitroff done?"

The answer is, lots more than our GM.

Lots.

Originally Posted by Doomsday101

I agree. I have seen guys who at one time were considered great GM and later considered hacks. Bottom line when a team does not win someone has to take the heat and that person is the GM. Dallas has not had the success fans expect and Jerry as the GM has to take the responsiblity and the heat for it.

We haven't won a damn thing in 15 years.

We need someone steering this franchise who knows how to build a team that can win. If Jerry can't find the right scouts and coaches to do that, then he needs to hire someone that does.

[InmanRoshi]

Originally Posted by Randy White

Ron Wolf = As a general manager he has 1 SB victory, 1 SB defeat in 9 years. .

Yeah, a mere 2 Superbowl appearances in 9 years .. psssshh.

[DFWJC]

Originally Posted by junk

Agreed. This scenario doesn't really jive with the scenarios laid out as fact by certain people around here either.



Well, he isn't really a real GM. Dallas has won 1 playoff game in 15 years.

Something is broke and I'll continue to argue that having a GM (and Director of Player Personnel) who have no background in personnel guiding the talent acquistion process is a problem.

Not sure why you (and others) take such an issue with that.

We could certainly discuss the merits of Ciskowski or Garrett's inputs, but we never really seem to get that far.

Well, by what you just said, they have at least 15 years of experience, and it's probably closer to 20.

[Doomsday101]

Originally Posted by mschmidt64

Huh?

Our GM hasn't been able to construct a consistent playoff winner in 15 years. Whether that's because he's made bad decisions "breaking ties" or whatever you want to call it, or whether he's hired bad scouts and coaches, or whether he actually picks bad players (and the truth is, it's a combination of the three), no matter what, his personal performance is lacking.

You can't say "But we have a talented roster, the GM did his job."

No, he didn't. Our roster isn't that talented. It can't win more than 1 wild card playoff game in 15 years. And even since he apparently "learned his lessons" and hired Parcells and then has been doing "better" since then, the same results apply. One playoff win.

[View Full Quote]So somebody isn't doing a good enough job. And it's the GM. If it's the players fault, the GM picked the players. If it's the coaches, the GM picked the coaches. If it's the scouts, the GM picked the scouts. If someone else is picking the players, the GM picked the guy who is picking the players. THERE IS NO WAY TO ESCAPE CULPABILITY HERE. It's on the GM, end of story. He has to get the guys in places to succeed and he hasn't. In 15 years.

There are very few other teams who experienced that kind of draught. So don't roll your eyes and say "What has Jerry Reese or Thomas Dimitroff done?"

The answer is, lots more than our GM.

Lots.



We haven't won a damn thing in 15 years.

We need someone steering this franchise who knows how to build a team that can win. If Jerry can't find the right scouts and coaches to do that, then he needs to hire someone that does.

OK then buy the team. My hope is that with Ciskowski and Garrett will be those guys who can provide the Cowboys that success. Hollering about Jerry is not going to change anything. I do think the key is finding the right people.

I'm not in to beating a dead horse Jerry is the owner it is what it is like it or not

[cowboysooner]

I'm shocked that the NFL is not a true meritocracy given that it is largely run by people with the last name of Rooney, Mara, Hunt, Brown, Johnson and Kraft.

[mschmidt64]

Originally Posted by Doomsday101

OK then buy the team. My hope is that with Ciskowski and Garrett will be those guys who can provide the Cowboys that success. Hollering about Jerry is not going to change anything. I do think the key is finding the right people.

I'm not in to beating a dead horse Jerry is the owner it is what it is like it or not

Well, that's true.

But I'm just telling it how it is.

[Joe Rod]

There is plenty of dead time in the off-season to bash Jerry. It's the draft people!

[Doomsday101]

Originally Posted by mschmidt64

Well, that's true.

But I'm just telling it how it is.

I have never taken the responsiblity from Jerry if the Cowboys do something I don't agree with I say so if they do something I like I say so. I just don't play the game of this player turned out great so that was the coach or this player failed that was Jerry. To me that is the biggest joke here.

I also think this team can win but it comes down to having the people in place. As Jimmy Johnson said Jerry does not interfer as much as they think. I think Jerry is willing to do what those around him advise but in the end he hires these people their failure is Jerry failure and their success is Jerry success.

[junk]

Originally Posted by CIWhitefish

This reminds me of something that has always bothered me. I am not saying Jerry is good or bad because he's both. However, I have never understood why Jerry doesn't at least get credit for his experience. He's been GM since he bought the team so I would say he does have a background in talent acquistion today. One can argue his effectiveness but he's had to learn something about the process in his time as GM, no? I agree that being owner and GM is not the best way to go and having someone who is only the GM would be preferrable. However I have not subscribed to the "football guy" or "background/experience" argument.

I guess I don't give him credit for that because I don't think he's ever actually worked at it. By that, I mean I don't think he's spent a lot of time watching film, going on the road or actually working underneath someone that could mentor him in that process.

If you install yourself as GM, without having taken those steps along the way to gain that experience, you'll do things your own way and you'll never really learn the basics.

So, yes, he's been a GM for a long time. But has he ever gone out on the road to a Pro Day or do a game to do any scouting? There are GMs in the league now that still do that.

[Doomsday101]

Originally Posted by junk

I guess I don't give him credit for that because I don't think he's ever actually worked at it. By that, I mean I don't think he's spent a lot of time watching film, going on the road or actually working underneath someone that could mentor him in that process.

If you install yourself as GM, without having taken those steps along the way to gain that experience, you'll do things your own way and you'll never really learn the basics.

So, yes, he's been a GM for a long time. But has he ever gone out on the road to a Pro Day or do a game to do any scouting? There are GMs in the league now that still do that.

Yes Jerry has gone to those event.

[DallasInDC]

The one thing that I hear often from the GM JJ detractors is that need a real football man to be GM. This statement often baffles me since GM experience is a culmination of real life experience as opposed to some type of training or degree program. Given the fact that Jerry has over 20 years of real life experience as an NFL GM I don't see how one can say he is not an NFL man. you can argue whether or not you think he is a good GM but would be hard pressed to make an argument that he doesn't have the necessary experience to do the job effectively.

[DallasInDC]

Originally Posted by CIWhitefish

This reminds me of something that has always bothered me. I am not saying Jerry is good or bad because he's both. However, I have never understood why Jerry doesn't at least get credit for his experience. He's been GM since he bought the team so I would say he does have a background in talent acquistion today. One can argue his effectiveness but he's had to learn something about the process in his time as GM, no? I agree that being owner and GM is not the best way to go and having someone who is only the GM would be preferrable. However I have not subscribed to the "football guy" or "background/experience" argument.

I didn't see your post before I sent mine. but it is good to see I am not the only one who sees the fallacy with this argument.