If We All Agree That Payton is a Better Coach

[birdwells1]

Originally Posted by pancakeman

Responding to the OP, one thing you could say is that a coaching change disrupts a team quite a bit, so you have to figure the time and effort to put new systems in place as a cost of making the switch too.

Not saying the cost wouldn't be worth it, but it is something that should be factored into the analysis.

Well that's what the offseason's for, also we have a veteran team so I don't think that it would be a problem. Every year there's going to be at least 4 or 5 coaching changes, so do you think those oprganizations are worried about putting new systems in place? No. They're doing because the old systems aren't working.

[birdwells1]

Originally Posted by big dog cowboy

Prepare for disappointment.

I can only hope but if you have some "inside info" that says that this definately won't happen please divulge.

[big dog cowboy]

Originally Posted by birdwells1

I can only hope but if you have some "inside info" that says that this definately won't happen please divulge.

I do not. I just believe there is no way New Orleans is just going to let him walk out of town. How would you begin to explain that to your fan base?

[Risen Star]

Originally Posted by birdwells1

Well, I stated that I didn't like Payton as an OC with us because the offense was stale but when he went to NO I saw who the real problem was. Guilty as charged but that doesn't mean I have to stay with that opinion.

I respect your opinion but honestly what did you think of Payton as OC here?

All things being equal, would you say that Payton would be an upgrade?

I liked Payton here. As I liked Sparano and Garrett. I've had no issue whatsoever with the coaching on offense for years. It's a personnel issue and a team discipline issue.

Now some would say discipline falls on the coach. I would argue it's pretty hard to instill any discipline in a team when your owner is so hands on. So that would be my one criticism of Jason Garrett. He doesn't force his lunatic owner to step back and let him command his own locker room as Bill Parcells did. Probably because he doesn't have Parcells' resume.

I just refuse to blame any coach for the complete nonsense that goes on with the Cowboys. There are two problems with this team and they share a surname. That is what must change to see real results on the field.

Anything short of that renovation plan and you guys are arguing paint shades on a condemned building.

[birdwells1]

Originally Posted by big dog cowboy

I do not. I just believe there is no way New Orleans is just going to let him walk out of town. How would you begin to explain that to your fan base?

Well, if the Saints continue to win without him then it might make it easier to explain. If he doesn't want to be there then it doesn't matter what the Saints do. This is assuming that he doesn't want to be there.

[SDCowboy85]

Originally Posted by big dog cowboy

I do not. I just believe there is no way New Orleans is just going to let him walk out of town. How would you begin to explain that to your fan base?

Of course they won't let him just walk away. That doesn't mean Jerry won't make a better case.

[Risen Star]

Originally Posted by wileedog

I don't think Payton comes here and accepts Garret's current 2nd in command role though. He can stay in NO and be The Man, and the Saints will be happy to pay him well to do so.

Obviously this makes it far less likely that anything happens, but what will definitely NOT happen is Payton comes here just to be a better Garrett. He will have Jimmy-esque clauses in his contract keeping Jerry from interfering if he does decide to make the jump.

And I agree with that. I would make that move after the season if it means Jerry steps back into Parcells mode. I just don't think that's an indictment of Garrett and his coaching potential. It's more an indictment of the owner and how his constant power trips smothers that potential.

[birdwells1]

Originally Posted by Risen Star

I liked Payton here. As I liked Sparano and Garrett. I've had no issue whatsoever with the coaching on offense for years. It's a personnel issue and a team discipline issue.

Now some would say discipline falls on the coach. I would argue it's pretty hard to instill any discipline in a team when your owner is so hands on. So that would be my one criticism of Jason Garrett. He doesn't force his lunatic owner to step back and let him command his own locker room as Bill Parcells did. Probably because he doesn't have Parcells' resume.

I just refuse to blame any coach for the complete nonsense that goes on with the Cowboys. There are two problems with this team and they share a surname. That is what must change to see real results on the field.

Anything short of that renovation plan and you guys are arguing paint shades on a condemned building.

I've thought about this many times, that this organization won't turn around until Jerry passes on. Whose to say that Stephen won't consider himself a "football" guy and run it just like Jerry?

While this may truely be the case, I step away from that thought because if this is the truth then there really is no reason to watch the team I've loved for over 40 years.

What I'm banking on now is that this organization needs, not a good coach but a great coach to succeed. Someone has to be great to overcom all the negative that comes with the hierarchy that's in place.

While I'm not a JG fan, he'll never be "great" enough to overcome all the things that go on with this organization. He'll never weld enough power to make changes in the culture that are needed because that wasn't part of the deal. JG signed up knowing that JJ called the shots and he was good with it, again that what happens when this is your only offer and you're just glad to have a job.

[Chocolate Lab]

Few thoughts:

One, it's hard to believe someone could argue that because a few fans griped about Sean Payton, and they also gripe about Jason Garrrett, that Payton would do no better than Jason Garrett as HC. That makes absolutely zero sense.

(And for the record, like Rack said, I don't remember nearly the complaining about Payton that some claim. I think we all realized Parcells has his thumb on both the offense and the defense when he was HC.)

Two, does anyone else not remember nearly the excuses for Wade Phillips that Garrett is getting? With Wade, we had penalties and couldn't run the ball because he was just an idiot dufus who didn't know how to run a team. With Jason, we have those things because the HC here is powerless to Jerry's influence.

Three, on Sean Payton, most of you underestimate the respect and admiration Jerry has for him. And the same is true of Holmgren. This isn't some Chan Gailey noob who Jerry can or even wants to push around. That's why it's critical we make a move when these two special cases are available.

[Risen Star]

Originally Posted by birdwells1

I've thought about this many times, that this organization won't turn around until Jerry passes on. Whose to say that Stephen won't consider himself a "football" guy and run it just like Jerry?

While this may truely be the case, I step away from that thought because if this is the truth then there really is no reason to watch the team I've loved for over 40 years.

What I'm banking on now is that this organization needs, not a good coach but a great coach to succeed. Someone has to be great to overcom all the negative that comes with the hierarchy that's in place.

[View Full Quote]While I'm not a JG fan, he'll never be "great" enough to overcome all the things that go on with this organization. He'll never weld enough power to make changes in the culture that are needed because that wasn't part of the deal. JG signed up knowing that JJ called the shots and he was good with it, again that what happens when this is your only offer and you're just glad to have a job.

I don't think Jerry has to die for this team to win again but I do think he can not win when he's this hands on. Check the history of this team with Jerry. It's only improved when Jerry was either not involved with the football operations (Jimmy) or so little involved he was "walking on egg shells" (Parcells). Neither is the case now with Jason Garrett. He's Jerry large and in charge. There is absolutely no change in the way he acts today to the Wade or Campo years. That is the problem that must be addressed, IMO, before this team can contend.

[Woods]

Originally Posted by Chocolate Lab

Few thoughts:

One, it's hard to believe someone could argue that because a few fans griped about Sean Payton, and they also gripe about Jason Garrrett, that Payton would do no better than Jason Garrett as HC. That makes absolutely zero sense.

(And for the record, like Rack said, I don't remember nearly the complaining about Payton that some claim. I think we all realized Parcells has his thumb on both the offense and the defense when he was HC.)

Two, does anyone else not remember nearly the excuses for Wade Phillips that Garrett is getting? With Wade, we had penalties and couldn't run the ball because he was just an idiot dufus who didn't know how to run a team. With Jason, we have those things because the HC here is powerless to Jerry's influence.

[View Full Quote]Three, on Sean Payton, most of you underestimate the respect and admiration Jerry has for him. And the same is true of Holmgren. This isn't some Chan Gailey noob who Jerry can or even wants to push around. That's why it's critical we make a move when these two special cases are available.

I agree. We should make a move. I'd prefer Payton as HC but I'd be fine with Holmgren as well.

I think either would be an improvement over JG.

BUT, unless we literally lose all of our future games this season, I don't see JJ cutting JG. And even then, I'm not sure JJ would do that.

And realistically speaking, let's say we go 7-9 by season's end. Is that enough reason to cut Garrett in JJ's mind? I don't think JJ would - even though I would if I could get either Payton or Holmgren.

[Risen Star]

Originally Posted by Chocolate Lab

Few thoughts:

One, it's hard to believe someone could argue that because a few fans griped about Sean Payton, and they also gripe about Jason Garrrett, that Payton would do no better than Jason Garrett as HC. That makes absolutely zero sense.

It makes sense in the fact that these same people told me Sean Payton sucked too. Now they're telling me it's Jason Garrett and Sean Payton needs to come back.

Pardon me if I'm a little confused here. Maybe those folks just don't really understand what the real problem is and are merely letting their frustrations out on the highest member of the totem pole that can be changed.

BTW, it wasn't "a few fans". It was the vast majority of this posting fan base.

Two, does anyone else not remember nearly the excuses for Wade Phillips that Garrett is getting? With Wade, we had penalties and couldn't run the ball because he was just an idiot dufus who didn't know how to run a team. With Jason, we have those things because the HC here is powerless to Jerry's influence.

Wade Phillips is a loser head coach. But not for anything he did here. He only got the job because of the strings already attached to him. He had no chance to succeed here and shouldn't be judged for it. Judge him for his failures at multiple other stops in the league.

I don't see how Jason Garrett's career compares whatsoever.

Three, on Sean Payton, most of you underestimate the respect and admiration Jerry has for him. And the same is true of Holmgren. This isn't some Chan Gailey noob who Jerry can or even wants to push around. That's why it's critical we make a move when these two special cases are available.

Jerry also has the same respect and admiration for the current coach. Now maybe their skins on the wall would give them more power. If so, let's do that. But if not, those guys would do no better here than the supposedly over matched coach we've got now.

Sorry.....at some point during this Jerry era you have to stop blaming head coaches and start to look upward.

[Woods]

I think the most realistic scenario by season's end is that JJ gives JG at least 1 more year to show improvement.

If I were JG, during the off-season I'd be pushing JJ to invest heavily in the OL and players to build depth at other positions.

If Garrett flounders after Year 3, that could be it for him.

[birdwells1]

Originally Posted by Risen Star

I don't think Jerry has to die for this team to win again but I do think he can not win when he's this hands on. Check the history of this team with Jerry. It's only improved when Jerry was either not involved with the football operations (Jimmy) or so little involved he was "walking on egg shells" (Parcells). Neither is the case now with Jason Garrett. He's Jerry large and in charge. There is absolutely no change in the way he acts today to the Wade or Campo years. That is the problem that must be addressed, IMO, before this team can contend.

So lets take the to bolded statements and I'll show you how you make the case for Payton.

First, I remember the walking on egg shells comment from the Parcells era and I liked it. That means that it is a type of coach that can reduce Jerry's fingerprint on this team but it has to be someone with an established reputation for winning like Big Bill had. Payton has that and Garrett doesn't.

Secondly, you say that there's no change now, in the Garrett years, than in the Wade or Campo years. That just tells me that Garrett is not the coach that's going to bring about change in this organization.

[garrett316]

Originally Posted by Risen Star

I liked Payton here. As I liked Sparano and Garrett. I've had no issue whatsoever with the coaching on offense for years. It's a personnel issue and a team discipline issue.

Now some would say discipline falls on the coach. I would argue it's pretty hard to instill any discipline in a team when your owner is so hands on. So that would be my one criticism of Jason Garrett. He doesn't force his lunatic owner to step back and let him command his own locker room as Bill Parcells did. Probably because he doesn't have Parcells' resume.

I just refuse to blame any coach for the complete nonsense that goes on with the Cowboys. There are two problems with this team and they share a surname. That is what must change to see real results on the field.

Anything short of that renovation plan and you guys are arguing paint shades on a condemned building.

Agree with everything here.

My feeling on a coaching change is this. Sean Payton, by all means you pull the trigger as long as Jed Clampett and Jethro Bodine take a less visible role after the hiring. A 66 year old Holmgren? No way, mainly because we are back here hiring another coach in 2-3 years.

I'm willing to wait on Garrett, mainly because nobody can win right now with the roster built from the outside in and the severe lack of depth. Also, no coach can have sustained success with the owner/gm as visible as he is. When said owner/gm says "well I said we would contend with no injuries" that's a direct quote, that provides the players with a built in excuse and undermines the coach, whether people believe that or not.