A Case for Redball

[sbark]

Originally Posted by Section444

I'm willing to give the guy another chance, I'm kind of tired of the coaching-carousel.

I'll agree........but I want to see steady improvement and consistency from JG. Just as JG wants to see from his players on a daily weekly, seasonaly basis.

I want to see him react with improvment in game mngt/clock mngt sits, I want to see him be creative with scheme to help put players in position to succeed. Let him reward the rooster with in-season moves (Parnell vrs Free and OTree)

Other teams have weakness's this time of year.......I want to exploit them via scheme just as they do our positions with injuries, players with warts........I dont want TNEw to appear All Pro on Sunday--isolate and get after him.

[Novacek84]

Originally Posted by sbark

I'll agree........but I want to see steady improvement and consistency from JG. Just as JG wants to see from his players on a daily weekly, seasonaly basis.

I want to see him react with improvment in game mngt/clock mngt sits, I want to see him be creative with scheme to help put players in position to succeed. Let him reward the rooster with in-season moves (Parnell vrs Free and OTree)

Other teams have weakness's this time of year.......I want to exploit them via scheme just as they do our positions with injuries, players with warts........I dont want TNEw to appear All Pro on Sunday--isolate and get after him.

I'm curious. What makes you think you will see this improvement if JG stays? He certainly didn't learn from the FG fiasco in AZ last year because it was repeated this year in BAL. I've been expecting to see improvement of the process this year and since I don't its why I want him replaced. I want coach stability but not if the guy can't prove his "process" actually is working.

[sbark]

Originally Posted by Novacek84

I'm curious. What makes you think you will see this improvement if JG stays? He certainly didn't learn from the FG fiasco in AZ last year because it was repeated this year in BAL. I've been expecting to see improvement of the process this year and since I don't its why I want him replaced. I want coach stability but not if the guy can't prove his "process" actually is working.

No guarantee's there........maybe those impovements have to come via him giving up the Off Coor duties...........it is a process JJ has to go thru also.

[Eskimo]

Idgit, I agree with much of your post.

However, there is one factor that I think people constantly discount when assessing Garrett's job with this team and the roster he inherited. I think few would argue that he inherited a lot of dead weight, entitled, underperforming and disinterested vets who got theirs and were looking to relax at Club Cowboys under Wade and Jerry. These guys had to be let go right away and Garrett turfed all of them right away but this created two years of cap hell to deal with all of the repercussions. Then he inherits $10M of bogus cap penalty from the league and so gets cap hell squared.

Now the second part of the roster he inherited was the BP guys who were brought in from 2003- 6. These guys were the heart and soul of the team and contained some very good but now expensive players like Romo, Ware, Witten, Austin and Ratliff. So again these guys are our core but they are entering the downside of their careers in many cases where their productivity has peaked and now started to decline. So while these guys are good they probably are no longer bargains on the roster compared to productivity but you need vets like this to have a quality of team and maintain culture so no problem with this group right now. But we will soon have to prepare for some possible cap hits (Rat and Austin) and an expensive re-signing and the best player of all may be in decline from chronic neck injuries (Ware). So there are problems that may be arising soon that we have to get ready for.

Now the last group of players he inherited was the group that should be ascending to their peak and forming the new core of this team (2006-9). In this group there are a few good players like Spencer and Hatcher. After that there is Jenkins who hasn't played much this year recovering from injury, Felix has been banged up all year recovering from shoulder injury and then injured both feet. The only other player of significance may be the worst starter on the team, Dough Free. This is the "doughnut" core of the roster and if we cut Free and let Spencer, Jenkins and Felix walk all but Hatcher will be gone. This is the doughnut core of our roster that is causing our problems. This is why we have to do very well in player acquisitions and FA just to stand still as a franchise. The only trick is that we have cap hell squared to deal with so we mostly have to shop from the bargain bin to fill our needs.

Finally there is the new group of players 2010-12 who includes the last draft class Wade produced and Garrett's first two draft classes that will form the next core: Lee, Dez, Tyron, Murray, Carter, Claiborne, Crawford, Lissemore, Costa, Killer and Brent. Here we see the embodiment of the new vision for the Cowboys and I do like the newcomers and see a chance for them to form a nucleus going forwards and they mature and reach their peaks and pull us forward into the future.

I think Garrett's job at rebuilding and remoulding this roster is a far more daunting task than anyone truly appreciated. After all, he was taking over one of the most talented rosters in the league - the one that had just gotten off to a 1-7 start and two back to back blowout losses including one to the hapless Jacksonville Jaguars and a shellacking by the Giants.

[Idgit]

Originally Posted by Eskimo

Idgit, I agree with much of your post.

However, there is one factor that I think people constantly discount when assessing Garrett's job with this team and the roster he inherited. I think few would argue that he inherited a lot of dead weight, entitled, underperforming and disinterested vets who got theirs and were looking to relax at Club Cowboys under Wade and Jerry. These guys had to be let go right away and Garrett turfed all of them right away but this created two years of cap hell to deal with all of the repercussions. Then he inherits $10M of bogus cap penalty from the league and so gets cap hell squared.

[View Full Quote]Now the second part of the roster he inherited was the BP guys who were brought in from 2003- 6. These guys were the heart and soul of the team and contained some very good but now expensive players like Romo, Ware, Witten, Austin and Ratliff. So again these guys are our core but they are entering the downside of their careers in many cases where their productivity has peaked and now started to decline. So while these guys are good they probably are no longer bargains on the roster compared to productivity but you need vets like this to have a quality of team and maintain culture so no problem with this group right now. But we will soon have to prepare for some possible cap hits (Rat and Austin) and an expensive re-signing and the best player of all may be in decline from chronic neck injuries (Ware). So there are problems that may be arising soon that we have to get ready for.

Now the last group of players he inherited was the group that should be ascending to their peak and forming the new core of this team (2006-9). In this group there are a few good players like Spencer and Hatcher. After that there is Jenkins who hasn't played much this year recovering from injury, Felix has been banged up all year recovering from shoulder injury and then injured both feet. The only other player of significance may be the worst starter on the team, Dough Free. This is the "doughnut" core of the roster and if we cut Free and let Spencer, Jenkins and Felix walk all but Hatcher will be gone. This is the doughnut core of our roster that is causing our problems. This is why we have to do very well in player acquisitions and FA just to stand still as a franchise. The only trick is that we have cap hell squared to deal with so we mostly have to shop from the bargain bin to fill our needs.

Finally there is the new group of players 2010-12 who includes the last draft class Wade produced and Garrett's first two draft classes that will form the next core: Lee, Dez, Tyron, Murray, Carter, Claiborne, Crawford, Lissemore, Costa, Killer and Brent. Here we see the embodiment of the new vision for the Cowboys and I do like the newcomers and see a chance for them to form a nucleus going forwards and they mature and reach their peaks and pull us forward into the future.

I think Garrett's job at rebuilding and remoulding this roster is a far more daunting task than anyone truly appreciated. After all, he was taking over one of the most talented rosters in the league - the one that had just gotten off to a 1-7 start and two back to back blowout losses including one to the hapless Jacksonville Jaguars and a shellacking by the Giants.

Yes. I've seen you post this before, and I think it's exactly right. And, when I'm saying Garrett's underperformed expectations in some areas, that doesn't necessarily mean that the expectations were reasonable or accurate. But only that that context matters because it affects how his performance is viewed.

One of the reasons I'm sure JG's safe this offseason is that the team clearly had to understand what the cap situation was two seasons ago, and they clearly embarked on a plan that was going to take longer than this season to implement. I believe they're on or ahead of schedule in most areas in terms of assembling the talent and changing/improving the culture. They may be behind somewhat in the quality of the game day coaching, but even that's hard to see when you can tell how hamstrung he is as a play caller. You just need to look at how differently Rob Ryan's game plans look now that he's absent a handful of players to realize how much personnel factors into a game plan.

Jerry's been around long enough to understand that good things take time to build, and he's smart enough (yeah, I said it) to have his own success measurements that include wins and losses as well as whatever myriad other details which matter a lot but we're not privy to. He's got to be careful about how and where the demonstrates his outrage in order to do what he can to affect fan perceptions, but the guy wants to win. It's good business for him to win. He'll stay the course if he thinks its the right course, at least until it gets a lot more painful that it's going to get this off season.

[Hoofbite]

Redballs roster changes (Before - After - 3rd year):

Romo - Romo - Romo
Barber - Jones - Murray
Austin - Austin - Austin
Williams - Bryant - Bryant
Witten - Witten - Witten
Free - Free - Smith
Kosier - Kosier - Livings
Gurode - Costa - Costa
Davis - Nagy/Holland - M.B.
Colombo - Smith - Free

Spears - Coleman - Spears
Ratliff - Ratliff - Ratliff
Olgoshansky - Hatcher - Hatcher
Spencer - Spencer - Spencer
James - James - Carter
Brooking - Lee - Lee
Ware - Ware - Ware
Newman - Newman - Carr
Jenkins - Jenkins - ClaiMaker
Ball - Elam - Church
Sensabaugh - Sensabaugh - Sensy

Not quite sure I'm following the "Before - After - 3rd Year" part.

Before what? After What and is that projected to next year?

[Hoofbite]

RKG is getting played out.

What, is Jason the only coach in the NFL who can identify players of quality character?

[Beast_from_East]

LOL at the part where we had 35 players on the roster that could not make an NFL roster when Garrett took over.


The previous year we won a playoff game.




Hey, I get it. Garrett has done jack so far as head coach so you have to make it sound like he took over an expansion team full of CFL caliber scrubs to justify all the losses. The only problem with this story is that those CFL scrubs won a playoff game the year before.........LOL.

[Idgit]

Originally Posted by Hoofbite

RKG is getting played out.

What, is Jason the only coach in the NFL who can identify players of quality character?

There's something to be said for committing to fill a roster with the right kinds of players. He's done a nice job with it, so far.

[CowboysFaninDC]

Originally Posted by Novacek84

RKG? Nonsense. Winning is what counts. And to win you need to play like winners. Ask Jen Floyd Engel. She seems to get it.

http://http://www.foxsportssouthwest.com/12/03/12/Cowboys-ugly-win-wont-save-coach-Garrett/landing_cowboys.html?blockID=829857&feedID=4680

and in order to play like winners you need the RKG, not gurode, williams, davis, barber, TO, etc.

[Woods]

Originally Posted by Matts4313

Hey all - I wrote this for another forum that I am part of. Part of the reason I wrote it though is due to all the crazy negativity I read here this morning. I thought I would share this with you guys - feel free to rip apart.

Also - PS - Adam, if you are reading this - WOULD LOVE TO SEE SOME CAP ANALYSIS!! What kind of shape are we in for next year????

A case for Garrett:

So - As many of you know, I am a supporter =>OF THE DIRECTION<= the franchise is going under Garrett. I emphasis those words to make a point. I do think Garrett as a coach and play caller has some significant deficiencies. Namely, the game day management of the offense and the perpetual problem with penalties (side note, 2003 was the last year we had under 6 penalties a game. We have been in the bottom 10 almost every year since then).

[View Full Quote]So Matt, why do you like Garrett? I think he has brought something that we have sorely lacked for far to long. He brought an identity.

Identity, who cares about that? All that matters are W/L.... Right? Sure - Wins are all that matters. But to build a franchise that can have continued success, you need to have an identity. For some teams that is "Smash Mouth"', "Defense" or "Passing Attack". Others it is simply "fundamental/Smart". But look at the teams that have continued success and they have a coach that embodies the identity of their team. Those coaches are in place for a significant tenure and mold a culture that breeds success.

Well then Mr. SmartyPants - What is our identity? RKG. Right kind of guy. Listen to Garrett talk about any roster move and you will hear this phrase. You will hear it more than once. Its our hope for the Dallas Cowboys, our future. Its a mentality. Its a type of player. Its a type of person. Its the culture that Garrett has started to implement.

Lots of hyperbole there, still didnt define RKG. Well, I can give you what MY definition would be. Not sure if it is Garretts. To me, it means a person with good character. A player who has passion for the game. A scrappy fighter who will give it 100%. Its people who will put in the work. An ode to the old school in that sense - football means more than money or fame. A team full of players that all have the heart of Jason Witten.

Thats cute, but I see an 8-8 team. Wheres the proof? I am impatient. I NEED A SUPERBOWL NOW!! You're right - we are an average team right now. There is no reasonable thought process that says otherwise. But that doesn't mean we are not improving. I posted this in another thread, but take a look at this:

Alright, so we've transformed ~60% of the starters in 2 years. We are still AVERAGE, you said it yourself. Sure, I said it. I think we are average for a few key reasons:
1. We are young in a lot of places
2. Even with all the turnover, not all positions have been appropriately addressed.
3. We are injured... Very injured.


Injuries are an excuse. Besides, we drafted injury prone players, what can you expect? We should be able to overcome *some* injuries. But the truth is we are not talented enough to overcome multiple injuries at key positions. When Garrett took over, he had ~5 great players, ~5 good players, ~5 good enough guys and about ~35 guys who wouldn't make it on most NFL rosters. We know this because we have cut them - and most are buried on a depth chart or not on a team at all.

As for being injury prone, I don't buy into that for MOST NFL players. You want to say Glass Hammy Austin is injury prone? Okay, fine. But to say a guy who breaks a hand one year and then a toe the next year is injury prone is false (in my opinion). He is simply unlucky. Those are two very different injuries that have absolutely nothing to do with each other.


Ok, so what if I bought into your theory? Redball comes in, rebuilds the bulk of the team under our noses, all while giving us some entertaining competitive football to watch. When should we expect playoff success? Good question. Tough to answer. I think it would be fair and accurate to say that this offseason is highly critical to the future of Garrett. I do not think you put Garrett on the "Hot Seat" for all of next year. But I do think there needs to be some internal conversations with Garrett that 2013 needs to be a significantly more disciplined team. I think it should be made very aware to Garrett that the amount of boneheaded mistakes our team makes is beyond unacceptable. If it were me, I would let Garrett know that he be relieved of the offensive coordinator title. As a young Head Coach, he needs to surround himself with smart people who can help him right the ship.



TLDR version: Garrett has planted the seeds of our new identity. He deserves at least one more year to see the fruits of his labor.

Well written post.

2 points I would make.

1. I like the job showing the changes in our roster over the past 3 years. One point of note is the OL. Whereby we managed to upgrade the LB position, for example and our CBs, it is evident. But when you look at the OL, it is clearly still in progress, imo. I still prefer Gurode from 3 years ago to what we have today. (Though I understand Gurode playing days are over now.)

Same for Kosier. A healthy Kosier was at least as good, imo, as who we're playing at OG now.

Garrett HAS to bring in the players for the OL, etc. this off-season, or I think he will be in the hotseat next year. There is no way I see JJ missing the playoffs 4 years in a row.

2. I think it is important to bring in the RKG. With those type of people, they are self-motivated, improve the culture in the lockerroom. You don't have to worry about them not showing up during the off-season to get their workouts in, drug issues (hopefully), etc.

But, once again, Garrett has to prove he can win with the RKGs. Having the RKGs is not enough, imo.

The point of drafting the RKGs is because you think you can win with them. JG has to show that.


Keeping posting your analysis. Good stuff!

[jnday]

If the sloppy play was cleaned up in the least little bit, I would feel different about Garrett. That should have been the first sign that the team is headed in the right direction. There is a long list of things that makes me think the team is not headed in the right direction, but penalties and stupid plays tops the list of changes that should have been addressed. There is no excuse for it.

[goshan]

Originally Posted by Eskimo

I think Garrett's job at rebuilding and remoulding this roster is a far more daunting task than anyone truly appreciated. After all, he was taking over one of the most talented rosters in the league - the one that had just gotten off to a 1-7 start and two back to back blowout losses including one to the hapless Jacksonville Jaguars and a shellacking by the Giants.

Every single NFL team has this sort of diversity of the roster every single year. This is the reality of today's NFL. Garrett hasn't been molding this and it isn't going to be molded by him. Garret is the head coach - he is responsible for putting together the schemes, practices and game-day management of the team.

[gmb85]

Garrett needs to stay. It would be a shame if Tony went through 4 head coaches. We just have to be patient and get better in all phases.

[rickjameschinaclub]

"Right kind" of players and "Quality" guys... If you ask them how they define it, they'll coime up with even more vague terms... There is nothing to quantify JG's success...

BTW, that roster that was replaced by JG, was the result of an aging core, that was brought in by Bill Parcells. That aging core, Wade Phillips also inherited, which he wokred with and got much better success. It's not like Wade Phillips wasn't strapped with Anthony Henry, Jacques Reeves, Ferguson and other 'veterans' that were at the end of their terms.

What people claim as the result of JG, was just a natural necessitity, i.e. this team had to fill roles. If we look at what JG has filled his roster with, especially the OL, which has had the biggest holes, he's given this team in reality nothing. The only quantifiable, potential stud drafted, was Smith, and that was a no-brainer for anybody needed an OL at that pick. Picks like Sean Lee and Spencer were done in the Wade era, and a Bruce Carter was a defensive pick, not one of offense, which is supposedly JG's area of specialty. Ratliff was made a NT by Wade. Carr and Claiborne, again were defense, and Dallas wanted to play more man from a defensive stand-point to create TOs and CB was a need going back to the Wade era, hell even Parcells era. Jerry spent a lot of money in getting CBs, because he knew he had to. The defense not creating INTs was a major issue during Wade's tenure, but in reality, I wouldn't blame Wade, because he was saddled with Dave Campo and scrubs at CB. Wade was more hampered than JG ever was in reality, but the Jg supporters don't want to admit it. The whole Garrett family sits in this organization, on of JGs brothers a pssing game coordinator, the other a 'director of pro scouting'....

I mean if you want to talk personnel on offense, you can go back to Roy Williams, Brad Johnson, Jon Kitna and a bunch of other scrubs, which clearly show JG's over-rated personnel skills, by his group of loyal followers. Funny, how the defendors of JG at the beginning of the season were telling us how these brilliant picks were not so brilliant, because none of the WRs could run routes. Our best blocking TE was drafted before JG as well, and one can see how well his loss left us from a blocking standpoint, because Phillips can't block worth a dime. Bennet was allegedly the other 'cancer' that created problems for JG.

And when the team loses and looks bad, which is quite often,, all of the sudden, Jason Garrett has no players...