Goodell Wants To Eliminate Kickoffs - Floats Novel Idea

[AbeBeta]

Originally Posted by ABQCOWBOY

That is your opinion. It is not mine. The league has no responsibility accept by those who would try to sue them. Nobody is forced to play the game. You don't want to take the chance, don't play the game.

Clearly my opinion is shared by the NFL and NFLPA, so your argument doesn't seem to hold water with anyone who has a vested interest.

[AbeBeta]

Originally Posted by ABQCOWBOY

Running a fake punt is only extending a drive. Kicking an onsides kick is what you do when you need the ball back after you have just scored.

Really, you can't grasp the difference here?

I think you don't understand the proposal.

Instead of a kickoff you get the ball at the 35 (or wherever). You can either punt or run a play. You have to go 15 yards if you run a play. You can line up in the punt formation and fake the punt.

You can run a fake punt therefor to get the ball back after you have scored. You can also run a regular play.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Originally Posted by AbeBeta

Clearly my opinion is shared by the NFL and NFLPA, so your argument doesn't seem to hold water with anyone who has a vested interest.

To a point, perhaps but there is no confirmation that your opinion on this is shared. Goodell might agree but until it's actually voted on and adopted, then no.

Kinda dropped your pistol when you jumped through the window there fella.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Originally Posted by AbeBeta

I think you don't understand the proposal.

Instead of a kickoff you get the ball at the 35 (or wherever). You can either punt or run a play. You have to go 15 yards if you run a play. You can line up in the punt formation and fake the punt.

You can run a fake punt therefor to get the ball back after you have scored. You can also run a regular play.

What dictates that the defense will actually line up on the LOS and rush? What if they just play 5 yards off or something to that effect? What would prevent a ST Coach or DC from just playing for a return?

[AbeBeta]

Originally Posted by ABQCOWBOY

To a point, perhaps but there is no confirmation that your opinion on this is shared. Goodell might agree but until it's actually voted on and adopted, then no.

Kinda dropped your pistol when you jumped through the window there fella.

Lets see. The league has eliminated the wedge and moved back kickoffs. Why? To reduce the number of hits to the head that occur on kickoffs. They did that because KOs were the one play where you would consistently see multiple players - particularly with the wedge play - taking hits to the head.

The players union negotiated for reductions in padded practices. Why? Because less hitting in practice reduces the overall number of hits guys take in the head over the course of the year.

It is painfully obvious to anyone who is paying attention that the league is working to reduce hits to the head.

Your argument was that the league has no responsibility to improve player safety in this manner. I've shown very clearly that both the league and NFLPA think differently based on their actions. You somehow attributed that as unsupported unless this particular change is passed. But maybe, just like with the fake punt piece, you really didn't understand what you were responding to.

[AbeBeta]

Originally Posted by ABQCOWBOY

What dictates that the defense will actually line up on the LOS and rush? What if they just play 5 yards off or something to that effect? What would prevent a ST Coach or DC from just playing for a return?

They can play that however they want.

But if you line up for a return you are far more susceptible to a fake punt. If you put 6 guys back and just have 5 on the line you are just asking for the punting team to fake. It is relatively easy to run on a team when you are blocking with 9 guys vs. 5.

This is pretty much the same reason why you wouldn't do this on any "regular" punt play.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Originally Posted by AbeBeta

Lets see. The league has eliminated the wedge and moved back kickoffs. Why? To reduce the number of hits to the head that occur on kickoffs. They did that because KOs were the one play where you would consistently see multiple players - particularly with the wedge play - taking hits to the head.

The players union negotiated for reductions in padded practices. Why? Because less hitting in practice reduces the overall number of hits guys take in the head over the course of the year.

It is painfully obvious to anyone who is paying attention that the league is working to reduce hits to the head.

[View Full Quote]Your argument was that the league has no responsibility to improve player safety in this manner. I've shown very clearly that both the league and NFLPA think differently based on their actions. You somehow attributed that as unsupported unless this particular change is passed. But maybe, just like with the fake punt piece, you really didn't understand what you were responding to.

No, lets stay on point here. The question is over this new proposed rule. Until this rule is voted on by the owners and passed, there is no confirmation that the League is in favor of it. That's what I commented on.

As to the rest of this, it's widely known that the owners fear legal action but it's a fine line. Remember that it was also the owners who moved the kick off from the 40 to the 35 in an attempt to create more excitement in the game.

At some point, you still have to consider that fans are the ultimate judge. There is no denying that. If the game starts losing it's popularity, the owners will make moves to change that and it won't matter about the legalities involved.

As for my personal opinion, yes, I do believe that the NFL is not responsible for injuries sustained through the regular course of play. You don't want to be injured, don't play.

[Heisenberg]

Originally Posted by AbeBeta

So I initially thought the plan was goofy. But I've come to like it. This may not be the plan you end up with but I do like the that league is looking at ideas to make the game safer that bring something new and potentially exciting. It is a real shift from all the previous efforts. For example, the league tried to solve the collision problem on kickoffs by first eliminating the wedge play and then moving the spot for kickoffs up. Yes, there are fewer collisions and fewer concussions as a result. But also, now kickoffs are deadly boring.

Punt returns are much more exciting to watch because someone actually gets the ball and runs with it on many plays. There also is usually a greater chance for a turnover. You can also run a fake from that formation.

[View Full Quote]The other piece here is the 4th and 15 deal. That is arbitrary but I do like it. Here instead of an onside kick, which is pretty much just a play based on the luck of the bounce of the ball, you get offense vs. defense. I'd rather see teams win or lose based on whether their offense can beat the other teams defense rather than whether a kicker can bounce the ball in a way that allows a 5th string WR to recover it.

Good for the NFL for thinking differently.

I actually find the idea somewhat intriguing as well.

[jterrell]

Originally Posted by Reality

The one thing no one is considering is that most of those 3rd/4th and 15 plays were not in desperation situations. If a team is up by 4-8 points with less than 2 minutes to play, they will play a soft defense giving up the short plays to protect against the big plays. Meaning, 4th and 15 will have a much higher conversion rate in those scenarios. That is even before you consider what VietCowboy said about several penalties negating any down and distance relevance.

#reality

Yup. Goofy plan.

Onsides kicks takes the ball out of the QBs hands and forces special teams to get it back with a low percentage gamble. Onsides kicks are recovered about 20% of the time but that is mainly due to higher percentages on surprise attempts.

4th and 15 is a low percentage play for sure but you give the QB the ball and open up penalty issues. 5 yards holding call... bam first down.

Plus you give a hot team that has just scored a TD the chance to just keep on keeping on. No need to play defense at all.

[Avery]

1. **** with that 4th and 15 garbage.

2. In terms of kickoffs, I'm actually okay with it. Since moving the line forward, it's a wasted play as everything sales into the end zone. Just give them the ball at the 20 and be done with it if you're convinced that it's the right thing for the game.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Originally Posted by AbeBeta

They can play that however they want.

But if you line up for a return you are far more susceptible to a fake punt. If you put 6 guys back and just have 5 on the line you are just asking for the punting team to fake. It is relatively easy to run on a team when you are blocking with 9 guys vs. 5.

This is pretty much the same reason why you wouldn't do this on any "regular" punt play.

I don't know that this is the case. If you line up 5 yards off the ball, all you have to do is make sure you don't allow for 15. In most other fake punt situations, you are not going for the fake when you have to make 15 yards. Your going for it when you have to make 3 or 4. All you have to do is wait for the play to develop and then keep everything in front of you or set up for a return. I suspect that it would me much tougher then you think and I'll tell you right now, if you fake it, somebody is going to take out your punter. I don't think it would be as easy as all that. The game evolves and one thing that is a constant is the fact that aggression wins games. The sport was designed to be physical. You will never be able to take that out of the game IMO.

It will adapt.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Originally Posted by jterrell

Yup. Goofy plan.

Onsides kicks takes the ball out of the QBs hands and forces special teams to get it back with a low percentage gamble. Onsides kicks are recovered about 20% of the time but that is mainly due to higher percentages on surprise attempts.

4th and 15 is a low percentage play for sure but you give the QB the ball and open up penalty issues. 5 yards holding call... bam first down.

Plus you give a hot team that has just scored a TD the chance to just keep on keeping on. No need to play defense at all.

I agree. This puts even more emphasis on Offense and greatly diminishes Special Teams. So much for 3 phases of the game.

Teams with superior QBs have an even greater advantage IMO.

[AbeBeta]

Originally Posted by ABQCOWBOY

No, lets stay on point here. The question is over this new proposed rule. Until this rule is voted on by the owners and passed, there is no confirmation that the League is in favor of it. That's what I commented on.

As to the rest of this, it's widely known that the owners fear legal action but it's a fine line. Remember that it was also the owners who moved the kick off from the 40 to the 35 in an attempt to create more excitement in the game.

At some point, you still have to consider that fans are the ultimate judge. There is no denying that. If the game starts losing it's popularity, the owners will make moves to change that and it won't matter about the legalities involved.

As for my personal opinion, yes, I do believe that the NFL is not responsible for injuries sustained through the regular course of play. You don't want to be injured, don't play.

The point I was responding to was your claim that the league is not responsible for injuries. And clearly the league and NFLPA, through their actions don't share your opinion. You can cynically say it is a fear of litigation. But some of these owners, they actually care about the guys they employ.

What we have is a proposal that will undoubtedly make for a more interesting play than kickoffs. Is it going to fly? Is it the best option? Who knows. But it is clear that the league is interested in solutions that don't just make the game more boring.

[AbeBeta]

Originally Posted by ABQCOWBOY

I don't know that this is the case. If you line up 5 yards off the ball, all you have to do is make sure you don't allow for 15. In most other fake punt situations, you are not going for the fake when you have to make 15 yards. Your going for it when you have to make 3 or 4. All you have to do is wait for the play to develop and then keep everything in front of you or set up for a return. I suspect that it would me much tougher then you think and I'll tell you right now, if you fake it, somebody is going to take out your punter. I don't think it would be as easy as all that. The game evolves and one thing that is a constant is the fact that aggression wins games. The sport was designed to be physical. You will never be able to take that out of the game IMO.

It will adapt.

So your point is what again? At first you were on about how the onside kick was a surprise play sometimes. Teams basic return setup is more susceptible to the onside kick than a formation designed to stop it.

It is exactly the same deal with a fake punt. In your return alignment you have the same issues. A surprise play will have greater success against a return alignment vs. one designed to stop a run vs. pass.

Same. Exact. Thing.

[AbeBeta]

Originally Posted by ABQCOWBOY

I agree. This puts even more emphasis on Offense and greatly diminishes Special Teams. So much for 3 phases of the game.

Teams with superior QBs have an even greater advantage IMO.

Funny, I thought the punt team was a special teams unit.