Connecticut shooting ***Do NOT post about gun laws***

[Hoofbite]

Originally Posted by JBond

“We must reject the idea that every time a law's broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions.”

- Reagan

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

- Franklin

Harden the schools as discussed and allow qualified citizens to protect themselves and others from nut jobs.

I've seen this idea posted and each time it completely fails to ignore a couple of key facts.

1. The people who do this are crazy. To assume they'd be deterred by rational thought of potential harm to themselves while committing the act is pretty much saying that they aren't crazy and are capable of rational thought. They're nuts, out of touch, lack reasoning......whatever. That's why they do this stuff.

So the staff members would have guns, then what? How does that change this situation when a guy goes into the classroom? If he shoots the adult in the room first the gun is either on the floor or in the desk and there we are back to step one of being unarmed. Not to mention, where are teachers going to store these guns so they are both 100% inaccessible to students AT ALL TIMES yet also readily accessible to the teachers in a split second AT ALL TIMES? Are teachers going to be given holsters to pack around in elementary schools?

2. Arming staff assumes that the nut won't simply up the ante. Provided they even care that people are armed........most kill themselves, or at the very least prepare to be harmed themselves. You don't wear vests and military masks if you aren't expecting someone to return fire. The possibility of being shot is there as it is and it doesn't really deter one bit. Instead, they simply armor up so they can do the most damage possible before getting taken down.

Or maybe instead of guns they move onto other things like a truck with 50 gallon barrels of gasoline in the back. Drive one of those into the cafeteria at lunch? Guns aren't stopping that. Or hell, what if it doesn't even have gas and the just drives through the schoolyard at recess and runs over a bunch of kids?

These people don't care if there are guns around. They're hellbent on killing people. Pinning your hopes on guns being a deterrent is misguided because there are nuts out there who just do not care.

But lets pretend for a minute that it would deter people.

Since 1980 there have been 137 school shootings. Most have few losses of life. The three biggest have been Columbine, Sandy Hook and Virginia Tech.

Those 3 have accounted for 72 of the 297 deaths that have occurred in those shootings.

Scaling it back to the beginning of the year that Columbine happened as it was basically the first time we saw true evil and intent, it looks as though there have been 69 school shootings. It's kind of hard to count them up on that timeline. Also looks like 184 deaths.

3 of 69 shootings accounting for 72 of 184 deaths. These are the ones where the nuts don't care. So even if we take just these 3 and credit teaches who carry guns with being able to prevent the other 66, there are still 72 deaths. If teachers carrying guns can effectively reduce 95% of all shootings but the net effect is a 60% reduction in death, is that good enough? I don't think so.

I haven't looked it up either but I would bet a number of the incidents are simply some kid taking a gun to school because he thinks he's a hard *** and after things escalate to a certain extent, he shoots someone. Or maybe he went with the intent of shooting a specific kid and that was it. Those types of things happen before anyone even knows they happen. Teachers having guns may or may not stop those. What they might result in is the shooter getting shot, which would be the best case scenario compared to teachers opening fire and accidentally hitting other students.

Teachers carrying isn't the answer because there are people who don't care. They'll either go in anyway or step their game up. It's gonna take a number of different approaches. Like all things, there is no single answer. Since when has a problem like this ever been solved by the simple answer of arming teachers?

The real tragedies are premeditated and planned. The attackers have the element of surprise. They have the upper hand in every possible way, especially if they are bringing in multiple weapons and can put out more rounds than a teacher could.

And another question, what is the course of action for a teacher? They hear gunfire and leave the room, telling the kids to lock the door behind them? Now you have a room full of kids, no teacher present to direct them and no guarantee of stopping the shooter? How do you coordinate an evacuation of that classroom without an adult present? Class full of 5 and 6 six year old kids, nobody there to direct them and basically no way of communicating efficiently with them to provide directions?

[joseephuss]

What if the teacher or the staff member is the "crazy" person?

[Sam I Am]

Any school employee has absolutely no business with a firearm on school property. That is a plain stupid idea.

You want someone armed at a school, it should be someone hired strictly as school security. These people are highly trained for security and firearms.

Besides, in a situation like this, I wouldn't want a teacher abandoning my kids during this type of situation to go find a shooter somewhere on the property. I would want that teacher directing my kids on what action they should be taking.

[Sam I Am]

Originally Posted by joseephuss

What if the teacher or the staff member is the "crazy" person?

Exactly. This is why I said he should be trained security personal. They are trained in security, firearms, and should be required to take mental health exams.

[JBond]

Originally Posted by Hoofbite

I've seen this idea posted and each time it completely fails to ignore a couple of key facts.

1. The people who do this are crazy. To assume they'd be deterred by rational thought of potential harm to themselves while committing the act is pretty much saying that they aren't crazy and are capable of rational thought. They're nuts, out of touch, lack reasoning......whatever. That's why they do this stuff.

So the staff members would have guns, then what? How does that change this situation when a guy goes into the classroom? If he shoots the adult in the room first the gun is either on the floor or in the desk and there we are back to step one of being unarmed. Not to mention, where are teachers going to store these guns so they are both 100% inaccessible to students AT ALL TIMES yet also readily accessible to the teachers in a split second AT ALL TIMES? Are teachers going to be given holsters to pack around in elementary schools?

[View Full Quote]2. Arming staff assumes that the nut won't simply up the ante. Provided they even care that people are armed........most kill themselves, or at the very least prepare to be harmed themselves. You don't wear vests and military masks if you aren't expecting someone to return fire. The possibility of being shot is there as it is and it doesn't really deter one bit. Instead, they simply armor up so they can do the most damage possible before getting taken down.

Or maybe instead of guns they move onto other things like a truck with 50 gallon barrels of gasoline in the back. Drive one of those into the cafeteria at lunch? Guns aren't stopping that. Or hell, what if it doesn't even have gas and the just drives through the schoolyard at recess and runs over a bunch of kids?

These people don't care if there are guns around. They're hellbent on killing people. Pinning your hopes on guns being a deterrent is misguided because there are nuts out there who just do not care.

But lets pretend for a minute that it would deter people.

Since 1980 there have been 137 school shootings. Most have few losses of life. The three biggest have been Columbine, Sandy Hook and Virginia Tech.

Those 3 have accounted for 72 of the 297 deaths that have occurred in those shootings.

Scaling it back to the beginning of the year that Columbine happened as it was basically the first time we saw true evil and intent, it looks as though there have been 69 school shootings. It's kind of hard to count them up on that timeline. Also looks like 184 deaths.

3 of 69 shootings accounting for 72 of 184 deaths. These are the ones where the nuts don't care. So even if we take just these 3 and credit teaches who carry guns with being able to prevent the other 66, there are still 72 deaths. If teachers carrying guns can effectively reduce 95% of all shootings but the net effect is a 60% reduction in death, is that good enough? I don't think so.

I haven't looked it up either but I would bet a number of the incidents are simply some kid taking a gun to school because he thinks he's a hard *** and after things escalate to a certain extent, he shoots someone. Or maybe he went with the intent of shooting a specific kid and that was it. Those types of things happen before anyone even knows they happen. Teachers having guns may or may not stop those. What they might result in is the shooter getting shot, which would be the best case scenario compared to teachers opening fire and accidentally hitting other students.

Teachers carrying isn't the answer because there are people who don't care. They'll either go in anyway or step their game up. It's gonna take a number of different approaches. Like all things, there is no single answer. Since when has a problem like this ever been solved by the simple answer of arming teachers?

The real tragedies are premeditated and planned. The attackers have the element of surprise. They have the upper hand in every possible way, especially if they are bringing in multiple weapons and can put out more rounds than a teacher could.

And another question, what is the course of action for a teacher? They hear gunfire and leave the room, telling the kids to lock the door behind them? Now you have a room full of kids, no teacher present to direct them and no guarantee of stopping the shooter? How do you coordinate an evacuation of that classroom without an adult present? Class full of 5 and 6 six year old kids, nobody there to direct them and basically no way of communicating efficiently with them to provide directions?

Hoof...good points as usual. That is why I enjoy discussing things with you.

Couple of things. Guns are not going away. Crazy people are crazy and there is no way to prepare for every eventuality. In 1927 a disgruntled school treasurer blew up a school killing 34.

Complete list of school attacks.
http://theophanes.hubpages.com/hub/T...ngs-in-America

My points would address what happened in this case. A mental patient stood outside the locked door and shot his way in through the glass. If it was hardened it would have taken considerably longer. Long enough that an armed armed individual could put the miserable little rat **** down before killing 26 people.

If an armed crazy person broke into your kids school, you would prefer

A. allow the crazy person to kill as many as they feel like or

B. take him down

Gun free zones are not the answer. They are an invitation for lunatics. That has been proven over and over. A little sign or a piece of paper signed by the governor will not deter crazy mofo's

I do not think we are that far apart on this issue. There is a middle ground that can be reached without destroying the Second Amendment and keeps our kids relatively safe.

[Sam I Am]

Originally Posted by JBond

Gun free zones are not the answer. They are an invitation for lunatics. That has been proven over and over.

This is not true. Crazy people don't think "umm, where could I go where I know they don't have firearms?". No, they just go where the people are that they want to shoot and start shooting.

[joseephuss]

Originally Posted by JBond

I do not think we are that far apart on this issue. There is a middle ground that can be reached without destroying the Second Amendment and keeps our kids relatively safe.

Very few people are claiming otherwise.

[JBond]

Originally Posted by joseephuss

Very few people are claiming otherwise.

Unfortunately the few that are have a great deal of power. I guess we will know by January.

[Vtwin]

Originally Posted by Sam I Am

This is not true. Crazy people don't think "umm, where could I go where I know they don't have firearms?". No, they just go where the people are that they want to shoot and start shooting.

Really?

You know this how?

Just coincidence that the majority of these massacres take place in gun free zones?

Got anything to cite to lend credibilty to this claim?

[tupperware]

Crazy doesn't always mean stupid. Some crazies are calculated.

[Sam I Am]

Originally Posted by Vtwin

Really?

You know this how?

Just coincidence that the majority of these massacres take place in gun free zones?

Got anything to cite to lend credibilty to this claim?

Notice how they all happen at places they attend or have attended? The place wasn't picked, that was already decided. The only people who "choose" places are terrorists and they don't seem to care about the place having guns or not either. All that matters is the damage done.

[joseephuss]

Originally Posted by JBond

Unfortunately the few that are have a great deal of power. I guess we will know by January.

That isn't true.

[SilverStarCowboy]

Originally Posted by WoodysGirl

The latest from the police...

----------------------------------------

Lanza is believed to have suffered from a personality disorder and lived with his mother, said a law enforcement official who was briefed on the investigation.

Lanza shot his mother, Nancy Lanza, drove to the school in her car with at least three of her guns, and opened fire in two classrooms around 9:30 a.m. Friday, law enforcement officials said, speaking on condition of anonymity.

The gunman forced his way into the kindergarten-through-fourth-grade school, authorities said. He took three guns into the school — a Glock and a Sig Sauer, both semiautomatic pistols, and a .223-caliber Bushmaster rifle, according to an official who was not authorized to discuss information with reporters and spoke on the condition of anonymity. The weapons were registered to his slain mother.

[View Full Quote]A custodian ran through the halls, warning of a gunman, and someone switched on the intercom, perhaps saving many lives by letting them hear the chaos in the school office, a teacher said. Teachers locked their doors and ordered children to huddle in a corner, duck under their desks or hide in closets as shots reverberated through the building.

A law enforcement official speaking on condition of anonymity said investigators believe Lanza attended the school several years ago but appeared to have no recent connection to it. It was not clear whether he held a job.

At least one parent said Lanza's mother was a substitute teacher at the school. But her name did not appear on a staff list. And the official said investigators were unable to establish any connection so far between her and the school.

More: http://news.yahoo.com/conn-police-ve...155817889.html

He had http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome ....same as my nephew and Bill gates. They are saying personality disorder because usually the people effected are not dangerous. They are rather different and many times even gifted in certain aspects, usually aspergers are not any harm to anyone else.

It's just that people take it and run with it like a kid with a sharp pencil.....then they fall and we all lose.

[DallasCowpoke]

Full Article Link w/ Video

Town of Harrold allows teachers to carry concealed guns

HARROLD, TX -- In this tiny Texas town, children and their parents don't give much thought to safety at the community's lone school -- mostly because some of the teachers are carrying concealed weapons.

In remote Harrold, the nearest sheriff's office is 30 minutes away, and people tend to know -- and trust -- one another. So the school board voted to let teachers bring guns to school.
"We don't have money for a security guard, but this is a better solution," Superintendent David Thweatt said. "A shooter could take out a guard or officer with a visible, holstered weapon, but our teachers have master's degrees, are older and have had extensive training. And their guns are hidden. We can protect our children."
In the awful aftermath of last week's Connecticut elementary school shooting, lawmakers in a growing number of states -- including Oklahoma, Missouri, Minnesota, South Dakota and Oregon -- have said they will consider laws allowing teachers and school administrators to carry firearms at school.
Texas law bans guns in schools unless the school has given written authorization. Arizona and six other states have similar laws with exceptions for people who have licenses to carry concealed weapons.
Harrold's school board voted unanimously in 2007 to allow employees to carry weapons. After obtaining a state concealed-weapons permit, each employee who wants to carry a weapon must be approved by the board based on his or her personality and reaction to a crisis, Thweatt said.
Employees also must undergo training in crisis intervention and hostage situations. And they must use bullets that minimize the risk of ricochet, similar to those carried by air marshals on planes.



Full Article Link w/ Video

[Faerluna]

There was a 20/20 piece by Diane Sawyer that aired in 2009. The topic was what happens when you put people of various experience levels with guns (concealed carry) in a mass shooting situation and how they react.

If anyone is interested in viewing these videos (2 videos, about 14m total length) please PM me.