Garrett Has Had Full Autonomy Over the Offense For 6 Years

[MagicMan]

Originally Posted by Risen Star

I don't doubt he's had input. But that's a far cry from full autonomy and if you're honest about who is to blame for the current state of the OL, Garrett's name has to come after Jerry, Stephen, Parcells and Wade.

Now the longer he stays here the more responsible he'll be but I can't blame a head coach of 2 years for bad decisions of 10.

Of the 4 possible culprits above, two are gone, and two CANNOT be fired. So that leaves Mr. Jason Garrett all by his lonesome and it does so happen to come after them. And I would give Jason 6 years credit of those 10. Had they won the SB during those years, I am sure he would also be taking credit for that. Take the good with the bad, no discrimination.

And as for FULL AUTONOMY, there are 7 ex coaches as of Monday who I would venture to say did not have FULL autonomy and what did that get them? The axe falls on the HC, whether right or wrong. And one of them was 10-6.

[Double Trouble]

Originally Posted by ninja

Watching the Garrett-loving sympathizers in this thread trying to defend their "Boy Genius Supercomputer" is almost as bad as watching Garrett coach and call plays. Almost.

Quick question. I'm sure we all know the answer off the top of our heads.

Which NFL team cannot execute a simple screen pass, a staple in 31 other offenses?

Garrett has proven himself to be clueless when it comes to managing his offense and his team. Some of the game management decisions (or non-decisions) have been borderline unbelievable. I can't recall ever seeing an NFL coach totally blow so many obvious decisions. Any other organization would have fired him, and if he were on the street unemployed today, the only consideration he'd get from the other 31 teams would be as a position coach.

Having said that, Garrett is not what is wrong with the Dallas Cowboys. Jerry Jones is the problem with the Cowboys, and any discussion of the problems should begin and end with him.

[davidyee]

Originally Posted by pjtoadie

The Romo/Garrett supporters never cease to amaze me! Yes Elway didn't win a Super Bowl until he had a running game with Davis but making 3 Super Bowls prior to that is no small feat imo! Does "The Drive" not ring a bell to you?! I'm born and raised in Cleveland so I know all about that. If you help your team make 3 Super Bowls win or lose you're not "Mr Choke" imo. If Romo would have led his team to the Super Bowl the last few years but lost it I wouldn't call him "Mr Choke" because he obviously had to play 2-3 good games in the playoffs to even get to the SB. Romo had his chance to drive his team down the field last Sunday with 3 minutes to go and win the game and make the playoffs but he threw his 3rd interception of the game. I like Romo and he puts up great numbers and wins regular season games but for you but to compare his situation to Elway's is laughable
[View Full Quote]/>
I would choose Romo over Garrett though!

...but true. You may have lived in Cleveland, but you clearly did not follow the Broncos nor did you follow the NFL and the media storm surrounding Elway. Particularly after his third SB loss and the exit of Dan Reeves as a HC.

Unfortunately you are dropping opinions with very little basis in fact and there are numerous media articles and examples still on Google to this day with damning quotes against John Elway at the time.

It was a very serious situation for SHanahan when he joined the Broncos and it was debatable on whether the Broncos were going to cut ties with John especially since they gave up players and draft picks.

He was considered a "Stupid QB" who would take you to lofty heights and then tear your heart out.

Comments made by Shanahan in later years hinted that he felt John was lazy and he really didn't carry a relationship with John after Elway left the Broncos. Some of it was based on how John left the team, but given hints by former coaches the relationship wasn't really there and Mike had seen what John had done to Dan Reeves first hand.

How bad was the situation with John? Reeves picked Tommy Maddox with his first round pick when everyone in the draft was assuming they would pick Carl Pickens to help John.

We know how those two careers went.

John Elway and his percieved failures was synonymous with "Coach Killer" until Shanahan was brought back as the HC and started down his "process".

He gutted the o-line. Brought in zone blocking. Drafted o-lineman no one wanted cause they were "too small". Got lucky with Davis. Or did he???

How vilified was John Elway? Check to see Ditka's comments on the day Bowlen chose Elway over Reeves.

John was a very good QB who was considered great after the team was moulded by a coach with a plan to minimize John's responsibility to carry the team.

Shanahan understood very well what John was and designed the offence around taking the "BAD JOHN" out of the Denver game plan.

The proof is in the pudding. Elway was hated as much as Romo is today. In fact he was even hated by his head coach at the time.

It's easy to point fingers, it's harder to work on solutions. Shanahan proved with his Broncos experiment it's worth it.

[Risen Star]

Originally Posted by MagicMan

Of the 4 possible culprits above, two are gone, and two CANNOT be fired. So that leaves Mr. Jason Garrett all by his lonesome and it does so happen to come after them. And I would give Jason 6 years credit of those 10. Had they won the SB during those years, I am sure he would also be taking credit for that. Take the good with the bad, no discrimination.

And as for FULL AUTONOMY, there are 7 ex coaches as of Monday who I would venture to say did not have FULL autonomy and what did that get them? The axe falls on the HC, whether right or wrong. And one of them was 10-6.

I'm struggling to find your point.

The fact remains anybody who blames Garrett for the shape of this OL is just wrong. It's fan frustration at it's finest. The fact that the two most to blame for it can't be fired doesn't make them innocent of the charges.

[Risen Star]

Originally Posted by Dodger12

I don't necessarily put the onus on what a coach did or didn't do 7, 8 or 9 years ago and balme him for this team's current faults. While BP missed on OL in the draft, he revamped the OL by bringing in Kosier and Colombo, allowing the latter to rehab and it paid off, as well as basically resurrecting the careers of Adam and Gurode who had pro-bowl seasons under BP. So I don't know how you can blame a guy who accomplished what JG/JJ couldn't.

There was a lot of talk about the RKG and JG wanted to get rid of the dead wood, much of it on the line. Are you saying that JG was not part of the evaluation process for guys like Free? Or Costa? Or any of the current chumps for that matter? Wasn't he an advocate for dumping Holland or Davis? How about Adams? There's a lot of blame to go around with the current regime in place, including Garrett.

[View Full Quote]Now if you're telling me that JG went into Jones and told him that Free, Costa, Livings, Bernadeau, Arkin, Dockery and Cook were inadequate to win with but Jerry still brought them in, then you may have a point. But JG's his brother had a hand in evaluating the likes of Livings, Bernadeau, Dockery and Cook, at the very least. That's putrid.

Kosier and Columbo were stopgap plug in starters. You weren't building a future with them. Gurode, the last decent pick before Tyron, was pre-Parcells and 2003. He got old.

I'm not saying anything about the decisions the last couple of years. Clearly Garrett was a part of that. A significant part. I'm saying this OL didn't get in this shape off of the last two years. He inherited a complete mess and I know people don't want to hear it but you can not win consistently in this league when you lose the battle at the line of scrimmage every week on both sides of the ball like the Cowboys so often do. It just can't be done. That's where games are won or lost.

Payton, Gruden, Reid, Holmgren, Dungy. None of those guys would change a thing until the players are upgraded.

[Risen Star]

Originally Posted by Trajan

I can, he was a critical part of the poor decision making leadership for 6 of those 10 years. He doesn't take all the blame, but either he is a non-entity and lacks the gravitas to be a leader and coach, or he was part of the poor calls, either way he hasn't produced results.

He should have been a leader in our front office as the offensive coordinator?

That's rich.

[visionary]

[quote=Risen Star;4940864]Kosier and Columbo were stopgap plug in starters. You weren't building a future with them. Gurode, the last decent pick before Tyron, was pre-Parcells and 2003. He got old.

I'm not saying anything about the decisions the last couple of years. Clearly Garrett was a part of that. A significant part. I'm saying this OL didn't get in this shape off of the last two years. He inherited a complete mess and I know people don't want to hear it but you can not win consistently in this league when you lose the battle at the line of scrimmage every week on both sides of the ball like the Cowboys so often do. It just can't be done. That's where games are won or lost.

Payton, Gruden, Reid, Holmgren, Dungy. None of those guys would change a thing until the players are upgraded.[/quote]

why could he got the OL upgraded in 2 seasons?

either he does not think it is that important or he made poor choices in who we got in FA and the draft (except smith)


a real HC would recognize the importance of a good OL and ensure that it is upgraded significantly

[Risen Star]

Originally Posted by visionary

why could he got the OL upgraded in 2 seasons?

either he does not think it is that important or he made poor choices in who we got in FA and the draft (except smith)


a real HC would recognize the importance of a good OL and ensure that it is upgraded significantly

That's a legitimate question. Not why didn't he fix it, as I don't think you fix it in two years but why hasn't it gotten better.

I don't know. Can you say for sure he was behind the approach last year to go all out on a CB bonanza and go cheap along the OL? If he was, he's at fault....but still not the person to blame for how bad our OL situation is right now. The emphasis on CBs over line play started here years before Garrett arrived. I smell the Jones stank on that one more than anything.

I need to see more before I know. If he were to coach here another 2 or 3 years and nothing changes there I'll be the first person to rip him a new one. In that case, either he doesn't prioritize the line play, he does but can't evaluate them or doesn't have enough stroke in the front office to get the players he wants. All are unacceptable.

[visionary]

Originally Posted by Risen Star

That's a legitimate question. Not why didn't he fix it, as I don't think you fix it in two years but why hasn't it gotten better.

I don't know. Can you say for sure he was behind the approach last year to go all out on a CB bonanza and go cheap along the OL? If he was, he's at fault....but still not the person to blame for how bad our OL situation is right now. The emphasis on CBs over line play started here years before Garrett arrived. I smell the Jones stank on that one more than anything.

I need to see more before I know. If he were to coach here another 2 or 3 years and nothing changes there I'll be the first person to rip him a new one. In that case, either he doesn't prioritize the line play, he does but can't evaluate them or doesn't have enough stroke in the front office to get the players he wants. All are unacceptable.

fair enough

i have seen enough though and have no faith that he is willing to learn from his mistakes

[davidyee]

[quote=visionary;4940881]

Originally Posted by Risen Star

Kosier and Columbo were stopgap plug in starters. You weren't building a future with them. Gurode, the last decent pick before Tyron, was pre-Parcells and 2003. He got old.

I'm not saying anything about the decisions the last couple of years. Clearly Garrett was a part of that. A significant part. I'm saying this OL didn't get in this shape off of the last two years. He inherited a complete mess and I know people don't want to hear it but you can not win consistently in this league when you lose the battle at the line of scrimmage every week on both sides of the ball like the Cowboys so often do. It just can't be done. That's where games are won or lost.

Payton, Gruden, Reid, Holmgren, Dungy. None of those guys would change a thing until the players are upgraded.[/quote]

why could he got the OL upgraded in 2 seasons?

[View Full Quote]either he does not think it is that important or he made poor choices in who we got in FA and the draft (except smith)


a real HC would recognize the importance of a good OL and ensure that it is upgraded significantly

...vs DBs I think Garrett considered the needs of Ryan, look at stats for the NFL trend and the signing of Callahan made him and Jerry think they could ride a quality QB, Receivers and an improved Defensive backfield.

Obviously the early injuries to the o-line and the ongoing injuries to the receivers and defence blew up that plan.

I expect some more help to the o-line this year given that the Cowboys invested in the DBs last yr.

With some chess pieces in place and recovery from injuries maybe things will be different.

[visionary]

[quote=davidyee;4940946]

Originally Posted by visionary

...vs DBs I think Garrett considered the needs of Ryan, look at stats for the NFL trend and the signing of Callahan made him and Jerry think they could ride a quality QB, Receivers and an improved Defensive backfield.

Obviously the early injuries to the o-line and the ongoing injuries to the receivers and defence blew up that plan.

I expect some more help to the o-line this year given that the Cowboys invested in the DBs last yr.

With some chess pieces in place and recovery from injuries maybe things will be different.

this is not a defense

consistent winning in football is about trench play on both sides
substance over flash

if this "collective" (jones, garrett, et al) really had this line of thinking that "you can ride a QB, WRs and backfield" and ignored the DL and OL becasue of it, they are idiots and should be held responsible

[benson]

Originally Posted by Risen Star

That's a legitimate question. Not why didn't he fix it, as I don't think you fix it in two years but why hasn't it gotten better.

I don't know. Can you say for sure he was behind the approach last year to go all out on a CB bonanza and go cheap along the OL? If he was, he's at fault....but still not the person to blame for how bad our OL situation is right now. The emphasis on CBs over line play started here years before Garrett arrived. I smell the Jones stank on that one more than anything.

I need to see more before I know. If he were to coach here another 2 or 3 years and nothing changes there I'll be the first person to rip him a new one. In that case, either he doesn't prioritize the line play, he does but can't evaluate them or doesn't have enough stroke in the front office to get the players he wants. All are unacceptable.

dude, reading these pages just makes it more and more clear that you really don't have a clue. It's not Garrett's fault that his offense blows after 6 years of having command? shouldn't we expect Mr. Ivy League to recognize his offensive scheme demands a monster oline and shouldn't he had been doing everything in his power to build once since his first day on the job 6 years ago? I guess that's not the office coordinators responsibility, to build an offense which suits his scheme, nor is it the responsibility or within the power of a HC, which h has been now for 2 years.

you are actually blind

[Idgit]

Originally Posted by Risen Star

That's a legitimate question. Not why didn't he fix it, as I don't think you fix it in two years but why hasn't it gotten better.

I don't know. Can you say for sure he was behind the approach last year to go all out on a CB bonanza and go cheap along the OL? If he was, he's at fault....but still not the person to blame for how bad our OL situation is right now. The emphasis on CBs over line play started here years before Garrett arrived. I smell the Jones stank on that one more than anything.

I need to see more before I know. If he were to coach here another 2 or 3 years and nothing changes there I'll be the first person to rip him a new one. In that case, either he doesn't prioritize the line play, he does but can't evaluate them or doesn't have enough stroke in the front office to get the players he wants. All are unacceptable.

He didn't fix it because his RT's play slipped fairly dramatically after they resigned him to a big contract (not saying it was the contract which was responsible, only that one thing followed the other), his young LT struggled with his transition more than anyone wants to admit. His starting C missed almost the entire year, and his new FA OGs were both hurt in camp, one requiring surgery, and their opportunities to play together before the games started counting were, literally, about 'zero.' It's not that hard to figure out.

Now, none of that means the changes we made for this season were going to be effective, but there're plenty of obvious reasons why they were ineffective. We need to upgrade the talent inside and out. And we need more time for them to play together. But at least they're addressing the problem. I'll be surprised if more isn't done in the offseason to address OL in terms of both veteran FA and relatively high in the draft.

[davidyee]

[quote=visionary;4940977]

Originally Posted by davidyee

this is not a defense

consistent winning in football is about trench play on both sides
substance over flash

if this "collective" (jones, garrett, et al) really had this line of thinking that "you can ride a QB, WRs and backfield" and ignored the DL and OL becasue of it, they are idiots and should be held responsible

...they had a plan, but it didn't pan out.

On the DL with Ware, Spencer, Lissemore, Hatcher, Brent, Butler and Spears they felt it was adequate for an NFL D-line. Improvement was going to be found by more experience for Lissemore and Brent.

On the OL the acquisition of Livings and Bernardeau along with Callahan would make an improvement over 2011.

Austin was suppose to be a #1, Dez was going to improve along with Ogletree.

They were excited about having Murray for a whole season. Witten was suppose to be Witten.

Who knew Church would get injured for the entire year. Lee would have season ending turf toe, Carter would dislocate an elbow, McCray would hurt Ware and give Claiborne a concussion he clearly has not recovered from yet.

On OL who knew Costa would hurt his back. Cook would struggle early on with injury and Free would forget how to play RT where he excelled earlier in his career.

On DL who knew Ware would be a wounded warrior, Brent would kill someone while driving drunk, and Spears would flat out disappear.

For me the two worst injuries were Church and Lee. It seemed after that the team struggled with answers on defence. Add in the loss of Murray for the middle part of the season and it was a scramble to make something of the year.

It exposed our lack of quality depth. Something most teams not named the Packers suffer from.

The trenches were not suppose to be a downgrade from 2011. They weren't expected to be "all-world", especially the o-line, but they weren't suppose to be worse than last year. In many ways you could say they did not improve.

[Zman5]

Originally Posted by CATCH17

He picked Felix over Mendenhall when he was an OC.

He also wanted Brad "noodle arms" Johnson.