Fix the pass rush by ditching Ryan and the 3-4

[erod]

Rob Ryan did a yeoman's job this year. After being less than impressed a year ago, I have to give him some credit. He patched the end of the season together with guy's he met about 10 minutes before kickoff.

But I think he has to go, and for no real fault of his own.

This team has two major issues before it can take the final step. It has to shore up the offensive line and find a pass rush. Everything else is pretty much in place except for a player or two.

The offensive line can only be fixed in the draft and free agency. And money is at a premium, so emphasis on the draft. However, the pass rush might be largely fixed simply with a change in scheme.

For too long, we've tried to force 4-3 players to play the 3-4. It's not working. Nose tackle remains a problem, and we don't have true 3-4 ends that can hold up against the run and get pressure on the QB. We have our best pass rushers dropping into coverage far too often.

And when we do play a 4-3 on 3rd-and-long, Ryan plays it more like a 2-5 with Ware and Spencer upright and roaming around. Looks cool, doesn't work.

Ware and Spencer need to have their hand on the ground every down as defensive ends. Lissimore can play the off tackle really well, as can Ratliff if he's restructured. Then, Spears, Coleman, Crawford, etc, can handle the nose position better with help inside. Lee plays the middle linebacker spot, with Carter on the outside with Albright, Butler, or whoever the best left is.

Bingo, the pass rush is already better than before. Maybe Lovie Smith or a Mike Zimmer disciple will come in to coach it up.

But that leaves Rob Ryan looking in from the outside. He's just not a 4-3 guy, and to date, he's still never had his defense in the playoffs. Telling.

[DOUBLE WING]

Many of the issues you mentioned can be addressed by our front office and coaches growing a pair. Ratliff should have been replaced a couple of years ago. It seems like everyone is too scared to tell him he's not our starting NT anymore. Or maybe he gets paid so much that they figure "screw it, keep him there".

The problem isn't that we don't have the players. The problem is that we haven't really made any concerted effort to TRY to get the players.

[CATCH17]

I'm ok with a change there. I like Rob but im not down with dropping Ware into coverage. Some of his schemes make you scratch your head.

I thought he did well in the Redskins game though with what he had.

Im fine if we keep him and im fine if we let him go.

[goshan]

I agree Ware is a better 4-3 DE. I actually think Spencer is a better 3-4 outside LB.

[Doomsday101]

Originally Posted by erod

Rob Ryan did a yeoman's job this year. After being less than impressed a year ago, I have to give him some credit. He patched the end of the season together with guy's he met about 10 minutes before kickoff.

But I think he has to go, and for no real fault of his own.

This team has two major issues before it can take the final step. It has to shore up the offensive line and find a pass rush. Everything else is pretty much in place except for a player or two.

The offensive line can only be fixed in the draft and free agency. And money is at a premium, so emphasis on the draft. However, the pass rush might be largely fixed simply with a change in scheme.

[View Full Quote]For too long, we've tried to force 4-3 players to play the 3-4. It's not working. Nose tackle remains a problem, and we don't have true 3-4 ends that can hold up against the run and get pressure on the QB. We have our best pass rushers dropping into coverage far too often.

And when we do play a 4-3 on 3rd-and-long, Ryan plays it more like a 2-5 with Ware and Spencer upright and roaming around. Looks cool, doesn't work.

Ware and Spencer need to have their hand on the ground every down as defensive ends. Lissimore can play the off tackle really well, as can Ratliff if he's restructured. Then, Spears, Coleman, Crawford, etc, can handle the nose position better with help inside. Lee plays the middle linebacker spot, with Carter on the outside with Albright, Butler, or whoever the best left is.

Bingo, the pass rush is already better than before. Maybe Lovie Smith or a Mike Zimmer disciple will come in to coach it up.

But that leaves Rob Ryan looking in from the outside. He's just not a 4-3 guy, and to date, he's still never had his defense in the playoffs. Telling.

3-4 or 4-3 still comes down to execution of the defense there is no magic bullet where if you run the 4-3 all of a sudden you become a great defense. When you’re missing tackles it does not matter if you lined up in a 4-3 or a 3-4

This defense was decimated with injuries running the 4-3 was not going to make them healthier

[erod]

Originally Posted by DOUBLE WING

Many of the issues you mentioned can be addressed by our front office and coaches growing a pair. Ratliff should have been replaced a couple of years ago. It seems like everyone is too scared to tell him he's not our starting NT anymore. Or maybe he gets paid so much that they figure "screw it, keep him there".

The problem isn't that we don't have the players. The problem is that we haven't really made any concerted effort to TRY to get the players.

Parcells never got the 3-4 to rush the passer here. Wade couldn't do it. And Ryan can't get it working either.

We get some garbage stats that look OK, but against good teams in key moments, the pass rush is non-existent.

Yet, we have Ware, Spencer, Ratliff (when healthy), Hatcher....we should be able to get some pressure.

[davidyee]

Originally Posted by goshan

I agree Ware is a better 4-3 DE. I actually think Spencer is a better 3-4 outside LB.

...neck and back problems you may possibly see a shorter career and the hand down position may aggravate existing conditions.

Sounds funny in a violent game like football, but tall guys bending low to achieve good pad level is not good for a lower back and neck that is already experiencing issues.

[xwalker]

Originally Posted by erod

The offensive line can only be fixed in the draft and free agency. And money is at a premium, so emphasis on the draft. However, the pass rush might be largely fixed simply with a change in scheme.

For too long, we've tried to force 4-3 players to play the 3-4. It's not working. Nose tackle remains a problem, and we don't have true 3-4 ends that can hold up against the run and get pressure on the QB. We have our best pass rushers dropping into coverage far too often.

And when we do play a 4-3 on 3rd-and-long, Ryan plays it more like a 2-5 with Ware and Spencer upright and roaming around. Looks cool, doesn't work.

The Cowboys play in a 4-man line about 1/2 of the time, sometimes more. I remember in 1 game where Brent was the only one to play NT, he had 28 snaps out of 63.

If they re-sign Sims, Ryan will probably play more 4-3 looks. They played some true 4-3 this year.

[superpunk]

It doesn't *look* like we're getting anything from Ryan that we couldn't get from anyone else. IDK why anyone is applauding him for the job he did we had one of the league's worst defenses in all the stats that correlate most to winning.

We allowed the fourth worst QB rating in the league - the only teams worse than us were Oakland, KC and Philly - a murderers row of the league's worst teams. We allowed over 2,000 yards rushing - the only team to do that and have a winning record was Indy.

Sure we had injuries but it's not like that is a feather in his cap - we had injuries and we performed predictably - as one of the league's absolute worst defenses. I haven't seen innovation on that side of the ball, we blitz less than almost anyone in the league. We don't get consistent pressure to make QBs uncomfortable (think: how Tony feels every game) and we don't get turnovers.

So what exactly is he bringing to the table?

Honestly you can say almost the exact same things about Garrett too. Two vanilla peas in a pod.

[tm1119]

Is it possible the pass rush was so bad towards the end of the season because of the inefficiencies in coverage? I thought our corners were not great but good. But aside from them we were trying to cover with McCray/Peprah, Sims/Connor/Papinga, Moore, Coe, ect. I mean to try and play defense with 3 or 4 guys who otherwise wouldn't have a job is pretty tough.

Basically, what I'm saying is that Ryan was forced into playing a more conservative defense to make up for the holes behind the pass rush. If Lee and /or Carter are in coverage with a half way decent SS in the secondary Ryan could have been a lot more aggressive and blitzed more. I just honestly don't think it would have been possible to blitz 5+ guys much. Can you imagine calling a play that leaves Danny McCray or Dan Connor 1 on 1 with the slot receiver? No sane man would do that.

[dwmyers]

Originally Posted by tm1119

I
Basically, what I'm saying is that Ryan was forced into playing a more conservative defense to make up for the holes behind the pass rush. If Lee and /or Carter are in coverage with a half way decent SS in the secondary Ryan could have been a lot more aggressive and blitzed more..

Losing Lee, Carter, Church, etc hurt plenty. With decent ILBs we win the NO game.

[Clove]

First things first.

Every year, you'll find about 20 posters that will say these same words, and if I had time to go back in the CZ history archives, I could find it easily. "We are one or two players away"

Okay......



Secondly, I agree about going to a 4-3, but Hatcher would play one end I think.

[Doomsday101]

Originally Posted by superpunk

It doesn't *look* like we're getting anything from Ryan that we couldn't get from anyone else. IDK why anyone is applauding him for the job he did we had one of the league's worst defenses in all the stats that correlate most to winning.

We allowed the fourth worst QB rating in the league - the only teams worse than us were Oakland, KC and Philly - a murderers row of the league's worst teams. We allowed over 2,000 yards rushing - the only team to do that and have a winning record was Indy.

Sure we had injuries but it's not like that is a feather in his cap - we had injuries and we performed predictably - as one of the league's absolute worst defenses. I haven't seen innovation on that side of the ball, we blitz less than almost anyone in the league. We don't get consistent pressure to make QBs uncomfortable (think: how Tony feels every game) and we don't get turnovers.

So what exactly is he bringing to the table?

[View Full Quote]Honestly you can say almost the exact same things about Garrett too. Two vanilla peas in a pod.

I would agree that he has done nothing to deserve praise but I do think injuries were a big part of it. You don't only lose 1 NT you lose both (Brent and before that Lissemore) You lose not one but 2 ILB we get Simms and he gets hurt. Ware is playing with one arm over much of the 2nd half of the season. You lose the safety early on and a slot CB

So while I may not praise the defense, but given how banged up they are I can't condem the job he has done either. Hell I have watched Pitt and the great Dick LeBeau look poor when all they lost was Troy Polamalu during the 2009 season that was 1 player and yet the defense did not hold up?

[superpunk]

Originally Posted by Doomsday101

I would agree that he has done nothing to deserve praise but I do think injuries were a big part of it. You don't only lose 1 NT you lose both (Brent and before that Lissemore) You lose not one but 2 ILB we get Simms and he gets hurt. Ware is playing with one arm over much of the 2nd half of the season. You lose the safety early on and a slot CB

So while I may not praise the defense, but given how banged up they are I can't condem the job he has done either. Hell I have watched Pitt and the great Dick LeBeau look poor when all they lost was Troy Polamalu during the 2009 season that was 1 player and yet the defense did not hold up?

Obviously injuries were a big part of it, that's exactly what I said (although tbh we weren't very good before the injuries piled up either, we just used different excuses then). the issue is, it's not like we had injuries and then overachieved. We had injuries and finished as one of the worst defenses in the league. A defense so bad that it finished at or below the same level that teams picking in the top 5 of this years draft will be picking. So we're not really getting anything from Ryan that we couldn't get from whoever is running the crappy defenses in Oakland, Jacksonville and Kansas City. We've got a meh coordinator who screams at opposing players and gets personal fouls.

I don't know that we should fire him he's just done nothing to impress me.

[zrinkill]

I have always wanted to go back to the 4-3.