We are raising a generation of deluded narcissists

[Zaxor]

Originally Posted by jnday

Best post that I have ever read of yours and that's saying alot. Great post. I couldn't have have said it better if I tried.

thank you

[Hoofbite]

Originally Posted by JBond

You praise effort, not poor results. There is a difference.

Don't all young children try hard? Kind of the reason they all get trophies, isn't it?

[McLovin]

Originally Posted by Zaxor

lots and lots of good stuff there thank you

but I guess if I was to summarize we both agree as a people weneed to put whatever crutches are being used away and take control of that what we can control and do some reassessing on what really is important.

Agreed. I just think that building a consensus goal will likely occur only in a real survival crisis or mass attack. Galvanizing everyone to a general social cause is difficult.

Originally Posted by Zaxor

no doubt friend you would have to have the means but if they spent it as fast as they made it they wouldn't be rich now would they and the money would again go back into the economy where it belongs for the betterment of all.

Again, respectfully, this is sounds really good, but its not prudent for anyone to spend as fast you make it.

One of the biggest killers in business is the lack of working capital. (Simplified) Many growing businesses do not have the reserves or credit to either invest to acquire product at the same rate to fill orders. Their sales create large accounts receivables but no cash. Mismanaged can lead to missing payroll and automatic bankruptcy.

Also, putting all money "back into the economy" creates a bubble. For the individual, there should be a prudent savings component and deleverging of personal assets over time. Retirement requires that one not spend (on consumables) all income. If you are talking about investments, however, many smart people do put money to work (investing in project apprediable assets).

I think you may be speaking of am inflection point in income/net worth where the personal marginal utility of acquiring 1 more dollar diminishes to the point where the difference is unnoticeable. That is valid, then there should be that discussion of investing for the greater good. You see some of this in charitable donations and fund raising. Obviously, for basic services and public needs, taxes are part of the equation through out an earnings arc

Hope I am not being presumptuous, but i have had similar conversations with people who all rich people do is hoard cash and measure piles. On the contrary, most rich people (not the ones whose outlandish actions make headlines) are very disciplined. They don't just buy a Ferrari every month, they invest in appreciable assets (stocks, bonds, businesses) whie keeping liquid assets in reserves.

A fool and his money are soon parted is so true. What is alarming to me is how many people I meet who dont understand time value of money and only focus on getting the new iphone 5 vs 4 in order to feel good. The majority of the outlandish stories you read about obscene spending is usually temporary and you know about it because that person was more concerned with vanity than discipline (see worldcom, Enron, etc execs).

I wish it wasnt human nature to only recall the sensational, but it is.

Last point to think about, when people say "betterment of all", it raises an interesting moral question which is hard to really answer. Most people are talking only domestically, but is there no responsibility to foreigners?

One can postulate that the US would like the world to have more democracy and does intervene (monetarily or militarily) in programs to further that agenda (Darfur, Bosnia). So in business, if consumers are demanding lower prices (beit from competition or less disposable income) and businesses do outsource to reduce costs and pass those along to a demanding customer, is the business responsible if the outsourcing is bettering the lives of mankind? Or is the customer?

I personally find this a troubling trend that Americans are choosing shortsighted cheaper and less quality over better quality and higher cost. But I can't help but think that the customer is really indifferent. The need to acquire stuff those in the next income bracket have are of higher priority than quality, nationalism - even though I doubt you would not see that result in a poll.

[casmith07]

The best learning experiences for me have been failure moments.

Not making the JV basketball team.

Doing poorly in a college class and taking it over.

Etc. I'm not afraid to admit it, because hitting the bottom and figuring out on your own how to climb back up is the best way to understand the value of hard work and to learn techniques for consistent success.

The entitlement/get it now society that we've created from all of the "everyone's special" and "feel good" mouthpieces has led to this. Nobody lets anyone fail anymore. Guess what? Not everyone is meant to be a white collar professional making six figures. But that's an even bigger problem these days that I don't want to get into.

Bottom line/TL;DR - early failure builds character.

[Zaxor]

Originally Posted by McLovin

Agreed. I just think that building a consensus goal will likely occur only in a real survival crisis or mass attack. Galvanizing everyone to a general social cause is difficult.



Again, respectfully, this is sounds really good, but its not prudent for anyone to spend as fast you make it.

One of the biggest killers in business is the lack of working capital. (Simplified) Many growing businesses do not have the reserves or credit to either invest to acquire product at the same rate to fill orders. Their sales create large accounts receivables but no cash. Mismanaged can lead to missing payroll and automatic bankruptcy.

[View Full Quote]Also, putting all money "back into the economy" creates a bubble. For the individual, there should be a prudent savings component and deleverging of personal assets over time. Retirement requires that one not spend (on consumables) all income. If you are talking about investments, however, many smart people do put money to work (investing in project apprediable assets).

I think you may be speaking of am inflection point in income/net worth where the personal marginal utility of acquiring 1 more dollar diminishes to the point where the difference is unnoticeable. That is valid, then there should be that discussion of investing for the greater good. You see some of this in charitable donations and fund raising. Obviously, for basic services and public needs, taxes are part of the equation through out an earnings arc

Hope I am not being presumptuous, but i have had similar conversations with people who all rich people do is hoard cash and measure piles. On the contrary, most rich people (not the ones whose outlandish actions make headlines) are very disciplined. They don't just buy a Ferrari every month, they invest in appreciable assets (stocks, bonds, businesses) whie keeping liquid assets in reserves.

A fool and his money are soon parted is so true. What is alarming to me is how many people I meet who dont understand time value of money and only focus on getting the new iphone 5 vs 4 in order to feel good. The majority of the outlandish stories you read about obscene spending is usually temporary and you know about it because that person was more concerned with vanity than discipline (see worldcom, Enron, etc execs).

I wish it wasnt human nature to only recall the sensational, but it is.

Last point to think about, when people say "betterment of all", it raises an interesting moral question which is hard to really answer. Most people are talking only domestically, but is there no responsibility to foreigners?

One can postulate that the US would like the world to have more democracy and does intervene (monetarily or militarily) in programs to further that agenda (Darfur, Bosnia). So in business, if consumers are demanding lower prices (beit from competition or less disposable income) and businesses do outsource to reduce costs and pass those along to a demanding customer, is the business responsible if the outsourcing is bettering the lives of mankind? Or is the customer?

I personally find this a troubling trend that Americans are choosing shortsighted cheaper and less quality over better quality and higher cost. But I can't help but think that the customer is really indifferent. The need to acquire stuff those in the next income bracket have are of higher priority than quality, nationalism - even though I doubt you would not see that result in a poll.

Again great stuff

lets see if I can better explain myself.... First off I am what I am and what I am is a believer in the goodness of mankind...that given the choice to do right a vast majority would willingly and joyfully do it... So I think that getting a vast majority of people to move in a direction would hopefully not require some dire/catastrophic event. People may get into a comfort zone but upon showing them and educating them and given them a realistic plan I think most people would implement it without having to have a event.

Again perhaps the business model itself is wrong maybe it shouldn't be profit driven but for the goodness of mankind driven...If we remain within the old model it encourages greed and corruption...the business model must change from profit driven to something else...see when business's talk about exploiting a market ask yourself what is the market when you break it all down at its lowest denominator it is people...so the market being the people what exactly is exploiting a market other than exploiting people..I realize it is a simple way to look at it but sometimes looking at a problem in its simplest form make the problem easier to manage. IF we allow the current business model to continue the change needed to take place could never happen...We should be working hard on space exploration not necessarily space exploitation though that may need to be as resources will be needed..We should be heavily invested on the betterment of the quality of life. There was a time when a parent could stay home and raise children while the other went out to work and his/her income was enough to support a family comfortably. there is enough food currently in the world to feed the hungry, to cloth the poor and to provide shelter for those in need...and no one would miss a thing its already available. The arguement I have heard is that it would crash the world economy if handouts were giving and people would stop working etc...

Let me ask you given the choice of being a productive member in society and vegetating on a couch which would you choose...Everyone I know would choose to do something with their lives...so many people seem to be worried about someone sitting home collecting a welfare check while they have to go out and work...well the people that would sit at home and do that you wouldn't want them in your work force to begin with most people want to be wanted and useful and if they can have fun and gather satisfaction from that so much the better... If you agree than we can start feeding, clothing and sheltering the poor. You wouldn't believe just how many people take offence to that idea. Once we eliminate class distinctions and we understand that we are all equal we can eliminate a lot what ails this world...again you might be surprised by those that need to feel better than somebody to have someone they believe inferior so they can feel superior.


those thing will need to change and you will see a change in so many other things it would be like dominoes falling

[ninja]

Yeah, maybe so, but as long as this generation of deluded narcissts will pay our social security, no problem right?

[Doomsday101]

Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment.
Will Rogers

[ScipioCowboy]

Originally Posted by Zaxor

no doubt friend you would have to have the means but if they spent it as fast as they made it they wouldn't be rich now would they and the money would again go back into the economy where it belongs for the betterment of all.

Not necessarily.

Expanding one's business usually involves leveraging one's existing assets. The more wealth you've accumulated, the more you can borrow from a bank or lending institution. The more you can borrow, the faster you can expand your business and create jobs.

Simply spending everything one earns isn't necessarily in the best interest of economic growth long term.

[vta]

I blame the trekkies and transformer geeks.

[ScipioCowboy]

Originally Posted by vta

I blame the trekkies and transformer geeks.

I blame the state of New Jersey.

[vta]

Originally Posted by ScipioCowboy

I blame the state of New Jersey.

So do I.

[McLovin]

Originally Posted by Zaxor

Again great stuff

lets see if I can better explain myself.... First off I am what I am and what I am is a believer in the goodness of mankind...that given the choice to do right a vast majority would willingly and joyfully do it... So I think that getting a vast majority of people to move in a direction would hopefully not require some dire/catastrophic event. People may get into a comfort zone but upon showing them and educating them and given them a realistic plan I think most people would implement it without having to have a event.

I think people understand their choices and make the ones they choose to live in. Anyone can renounce the the trappings of everyday life, 86 cell phone, tv, car, etc. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that choice. But I would that person would not expect others to finance that choice to the tune of physician pay. What I find troubling is that people think if they make that sacrifice that government should mandate other people have to make up the difference so that income transfer can cover the cell phone bill

Again perhaps the business model itself is wrong maybe it shouldn't be profit driven but for the goodness of mankind driven...If we remain within the old model it encourages greed and corruption...the business model must change from profit driven to something else...see when business's talk about exploiting a market ask yourself what is the market when you break it all down at its lowest denominator it is people...so the market being the people what exactly is exploiting a market other than exploiting people..I realize it is a simple way to look at it but sometimes looking at a problem in its simplest form make the problem easier to manage. IF we allow the current business model to continue the change needed to take place could never happen...We should be working hard on space exploration not necessarily space exploitation though that may need to be as resources will be needed..We should be heavily invested on the betterment of the quality of life.

It would be very naive to think that "profit" fosters and germinates corruption more than another economic model. I do not see profit as a pejorative. When people become comfortable they stop trying. In 225 years of America, which was a big part in the Industrial Revolution, I woudl think that "quality of life" has undeniably improved more than any other time in history. Profit and competition has made travel affordable to the masses, etc.

There is a concept of economies of scale. Businesses are able to lower production costs the more supply they produce (Fixed vs variable cost), etc. One of the benefits "profit" has given is the ability to increase market share by penetrating/exploit market in order offer products to other areas at lower prices.

There was a time when a parent could stay home and raise children while the other went out to work and his/her income was enough to support a family comfortably. there is enough food currently in the world to feed the hungry, to cloth the poor and to provide shelter for those in need...and no one would miss a thing its already available. The arguement I have heard is that it would crash the world economy if handouts were giving and people would stop working etc...

A parent can still stay home if they decide that is what they want to do. Some do and sacrifice some creature comforts for the family, others do not. Maybe people dont need 2 cars, 3000sqft house, etc. but if they choose that then so be it. We cannot legislate one parent stays home, that is an infringement on liberty. I dont buy that people cant do that now because of "profit." or living expenses. Thinking back to 1970s, many families had 1 car and 1 income. - No cable bill, no cell bill, etc. It can be done

Let me ask you given the choice of being a productive member in society and vegetating on a couch which would you choose...Everyone I know would choose to do something with their lives...so many people seem to be worried about someone sitting home collecting a welfare check while they have to go out and work...well the people that would sit at home and do that you wouldn't want them in your work force to begin with most people want to be wanted and useful and if they can have fun and gather satisfaction from that so much the better... If you agree than we can start feeding, clothing and sheltering the poor. You wouldn't believe just how many people take offence to that idea. Once we eliminate class distinctions and we understand that we are all equal we can eliminate a lot what ails this world...again you might be surprised by those that need to feel better than somebody to have someone they believe inferior so they can feel superior.

I dont think people consciously want to veg on the couch, but I do think people get comfortable and if they know they can coast through, many do. I worked at a Fortune 50 company that was the largest employer in the area by far. II would say 30% were completely coasting. These were accountants that could use 2 worksheets in Excel these people were making 30% more than me taking 8 hours to do a 115 minute job. This is even more pronounced in government and educational systems as they are set up today. So when I think "value", I think being able to grow and expand your skill set, knowledge basis and have a valued input to is better than churnig out TPS reports for 30 years.

those thing will need to change and you will see a change in so many other things it would be like dominoes falling

Dont get me wrong, I am not trying to dissuade you, but many times "idealism" sounds good, but it requires mandating action that infringes on others who dont buy in.

That may or may not improve "quality of life" depending on ones perspective

[Zaxor]

Originally Posted by McLovin

I think people understand their choices and make the ones they choose to live in. Anyone can renounce the the trappings of everyday life, 86 cell phone, tv, car, etc. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that choice. But I would that person would not expect others to finance that choice to the tune of physician pay. What I find troubling is that people think if they make that sacrifice that government should mandate other people have to make up the difference so that income transfer can cover the cell phone bill



[View Full Quote]It would be very naive to think that "profit" fosters and germinates corruption more than another economic model. I do not see profit as a pejorative. When people become comfortable they stop trying. In 225 years of America, which was a big part in the Industrial Revolution, I woudl think that "quality of life" has undeniably improved more than any other time in history. Profit and competition has made travel affordable to the masses, etc.

There is a concept of economies of scale. Businesses are able to lower production costs the more supply they produce (Fixed vs variable cost), etc. One of the benefits "profit" has given is the ability to increase market share by penetrating/exploit market in order offer products to other areas at lower prices.



A parent can still stay home if they decide that is what they want to do. Some do and sacrifice some creature comforts for the family, others do not. Maybe people dont need 2 cars, 3000sqft house, etc. but if they choose that then so be it. We cannot legislate one parent stays home, that is an infringement on liberty. I dont buy that people cant do that now because of "profit." or living expenses. Thinking back to 1970s, many families had 1 car and 1 income. - No cable bill, no cell bill, etc. It can be done



I dont think people consciously want to veg on the couch, but I do think people get comfortable and if they know they can coast through, many do. I worked at a Fortune 50 company that was the largest employer in the area by far. II would say 30% were completely coasting. These were accountants that could use 2 worksheets in Excel these people were making 30% more than me taking 8 hours to do a 115 minute job. This is even more pronounced in government and educational systems as they are set up today. So when I think "value", I think being able to grow and expand your skill set, knowledge basis and have a valued input to is better than churnig out TPS reports for 30 years.



Dont get me wrong, I am not trying to dissuade you, but many times "idealism" sounds good, but it requires mandating action that infringes on others who dont buy in.

That may or may not improve "quality of life" depending on ones perspective

maybe it is myself and those around me but sitting on one's laurels are just not in the DNA we strive for perfection in all we do...don't you..I wouldn't sit down and say well I did this I am going to stop trying now...I think that is selling people short...where is the pride of a job well done and feeling of acomplishment what of a goal on leaving the earth better than you found it than no one's job is finished to stop trying.

as far as paying for someone telephone bill that is not what I am talking about...lets say that the absolute minimum a person to have a decent standard of living is $1500 dollars a month (purely speculative upon might part) those who are not meeting that standard are provided assistance up to that amount...that means they still have to be prudent and not live outside their means but it doesn't leave them in a poverty situation.

IF everybody is entitled to that money just by being born than any extra money they earn is taxable but they are able to keep what is left to save for luxury items or however they wish to spend it. you than remove poverty and though you may not have removed classes from society you might have at least removed the poor.

People that are poor have a greater tendency to also be poor in backbone and drive and lack self esteem... if you can elimanate that you have more people that will be able to contribute to the common good.

as far as those you believe would skate than they are not in a job where their passion comes into play...people are passionate about different things and that is where inevitably their love and times goes..if we made it where I have to work for this company because the pay but rather I could work in oceanography and don't have to worry about the bills... you get people who are passionate about their jobs and there are no skaters.... but so long as the $ comes into play you remove passion and replace it with greed.

If you could work at anything you would like and didn't have to look out for the money would you be doing what you are doing or would you be doing something else with joy and passion.

I might write or I might do art or I might grow stuff in a garden I might take care of the elderly or got to the dog pound at take some dogs out for a walk...I would do something and I would do it with vim and vigor. Others like my lady likes to work in a drug store she enjoys it. You will find that almost all roles will get filled but by passionate and dedicated people.

[ShiningStar]

Originally Posted by ScipioCowboy

I blame the state of New Jersey.

Trekkies, transformer geeks and NJ, thats a triple whammy for me.

[McLovin]

[quote]maybe it is myself and those around me but sitting on one's laurels are just not in the DNA we strive for perfection in all we do...don't you..I wouldn't sit down and say well I did this I am going to stop trying now...I think that is selling people short...where is the pride of a job well done and feeling of acomplishment what of a goal on leaving the earth better than you found it than no one's job is finished to stop trying.[quote]

I definitely strive for perfection, and money is not the primary motivator. I like proving to myself that I have accomplished something daily and expanded my skills. There are way too many people who do not. Entering the workplace 16 years ago, this really shocked me. Now these people rarely got promoted, but were content with their 3%/yr raise. I dont think I am selling people short, its first hand experience and is a similar story in everywhere I have been. Most people are averse to change.

as far as paying for someone telephone bill that is not what I am talking about...lets say that the absolute minimum a person to have a decent standard of living is $1500 dollars a month (purely speculative upon might part) those who are not meeting that standard are provided assistance up to that amount...that means they still have to be prudent and not live outside their means but it doesn't leave them in a poverty situation.

IF everybody is entitled to that money just by being born than any extra money they earn is taxable but they are able to keep what is left to save for luxury items or however they wish to spend it. you than remove poverty and though you may not have removed classes from society you might have at least removed the poor.

I think lifetime entitlement helps condition people to a situation. there has to be some incentive to work. To some degree, you can never remove all poverty because there are dreggs of society that make horrendous choices (drugs, etc) that will always migrate downward. People do not make rational choices.

People that are poor have a greater tendency to also be poor in backbone and drive and lack self esteem... if you can elimanate that you have more people that will be able to contribute to the common good.

There are many poor who have drive and do better their situation. Conditioning plays a big part. That's why you see so many lottery winners lose everything and return to their class with in 3 years

as far as those you believe would skate than they are not in a job where their passion comes into play...people are passionate about different things and that is where inevitably their love and times goes..if we made it where I have to work for this company because the pay but rather I could work in oceanography and don't have to worry about the bills... you get people who are passionate about their jobs and there are no skaters.... but so long as the $ comes into play you remove passion and replace it with greed.

If you could work at anything you would like and didn't have to look out for the money would you be doing what you are doing or would you be doing something else with joy and passion.

[View Full Quote]I might write or I might do art or I might grow stuff in a garden I might take care of the elderly or got to the dog pound at take some dogs out for a walk...I would do something and I would do it with vim and vigor. Others like my lady likes to work in a drug store she enjoys it. You will find that almost all roles will get filled but by passionate and dedicated people.

frankly, most people are never going to be in jobs that is their true passion. The reason comes down to responsibility. First just becasue you have passion for somethin, doesn;t mean you have the talent or skill set. A 5' white guy is not going to the NBA. There can only be so many rock stars, etc.

Life moves on and people grow up and want to start a family. once you have a family, people have to sacrifice for the greater good of the family. Sometimes you are forced to continue on a career that you hate because you have to pay child support, healthcare, alimony, etc where the consequences of taking a huge pay cut results in jail.

And no, I would not be doing what I am doing now, but I got married to the wrong person and had a kid. Now I am responsible for child support and responsibilities - legally and morally. I can't start my own business and go a year with less income as my ex is not that forgiving, nor is Tenn state law. I dont hold a grudge, I still put all I have in my job and have done well


All of what you say sounds good, but in reality people make life choices. If those choices are bad, that impacts your future and your options. What I see is a growing trend of people making those bad choices and expecting to not have to be accountable for those. When people make bad choices, I don't think they are entitled to get bailed out by society.

resources are scarce (be it intellectual, commodity, etc.). That scarcity assigns value. Some people are always going to be more successful than others. Heart surgeons are more scarce than artists and do provide greater utility to society and especially to an individual in need. If you had a child that needed heart surgery and you had to gicve up your art and immediately work at McDonanlds to get insurance, you would. You would sell everything you had to make sure she survived.

Profit is derived from value demand. If people placed no value on somethign, there would be less profit. While you may not believe it, free market is the best way to be sure people are getting the best deal. Competition drives innovation. When everyone is entitled the same service, the level/quailty has to diminish. It will continue to diminish until there is an opportunity for someone to provide better quality at the same price through innovation or efficiency.

but so long as the $ comes into play you remove passion and replace it with greed.

I completely disagree with statement wholeheartedly. Those who succeed are driven more internally than externally. Just because I am not a musician as my day job, does not diminish one iota the effort I put into my day job. Because I am successful is not from Greed.