Goose not liking the switch to a 4-3

[Mr_Bill]

Originally Posted by CowboyChris

Goose on with Norm. great listen

you need 8 DL in place, we have 8 LB's, lot harder to find DL than LB's

Ware doesnt fit at DE
Spencer doesnt fit at all
Ratliff isnt a Warren Sapp

we dont have a 3 tech DT
we dont have a WLB
we dont have the safety in place either, really emphasizing Safety, high round pick

http://stationcaster.com/player_skin...=4891&f=987191

I finally got around to doing some research concerning Gosselin's comment about Derrick Thomas and the 93 Chiefs.

First off, I questioned Thomas's size. I thought Ware would be much bigger. Well, it depends on your source. NFL.com and Wikipedia have Thomas at 255, while Pro-Football-Reference.com has him at 243. Ware is currently listed at 254 at DallasCowboys.com. So, Ware is either about the same size, or somewhat bigger.

Not all that relevant.

However, I did find something very interesting in my research. In no year, on either NFL or PFR, is Derrick Thomas listed as a DE for that year. Not only that, but, PFR indicates that the switch to 4-3 was done in 94, not in 93.

Here are links to the two seasons:

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...s/kan/1993.htm

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...s/kan/1994.htm

Scroll down to the 'Defense & Fumbles' section and check out the players, their position, and the games played and started. In 93, the Chiefs had 2 ILBs and a NT who all started at least 14 games. Thomas started 15 games at ROLB. He had 8 sacks, but was still selected to the Pro Bowl. In 94, they had an MLB and 2 DTs who all started at least 14 games. Thomas is listed as an RLB, starting 15 games. He had 11 sacks and was again selected to the Pro Bowl.

Now, I do not believe for a minute that Thomas had 11 sacks just from blitzing from an outside position in a 4-3. I suspect that on passing downs, he did put his hand on the ground and rushed as a DE. However, it appears that he at least started those games as a linebacker in a base 4-3 defense, but not until 1994.

To confuse the matter even further, I found this from Scout.com:

From 1989-1991, Thomas played in a 3-4 scheme, primarily as a blitzing linebacker in passing situations. During this period he amassed 44 sacks, averaging 14.5 sacks per season.

The rest of Thomas’ career (1992-1999), he would work out of various 4-3 schemes. In 1997, Chiefs defensive coordinator Gunther Cunningham came up with "The Falcon" position in an attempt to take advantage of Thomas’ pass-rush skills. During this period he amassed 82.5 sacks, averaging 10 sacks per year.

http://kan.scout.com/2/724526.html

By the way, Dave Adolph was the Chiefs' defensive coordinator from 1992-1994 (under Schottenheimer) after which Cunningham took over.

Regardless, at no time was Thomas listed as anything but a linebacker at any site I visited.

[Mr_Bill]

Originally Posted by SWG9

IDK, Goose was responsible for drafting DeMarcus Ware. I'd take what he says somewhat seriously.

Rich Gosselin never scouted a player in his life. That includes DeMarcus Ware.

Goose's task, in that incident, was to do what he actually does best, poll his many NFL contacts to see what they were saying. His resulting report was what swayed the decision toward Ware. By the way, Brian Broaddus had done the same thing for Jones and had come up with the same conclusion.

[wileedog]

Originally Posted by AsthmaField

No, but he should be very good in a 43... which is the defense he should have been playing in all along.

He's 31 and has had the snot beat out of him for 8 years. Who knows if he can play in ANY defense anymore, 3-4 or 4-3?

Ratliff can do it, and Hatcher can do it, and maybe Crawford can do it (along with playing SDE too).

"Can do it" is an entirely different animal from "can do it really well." Bottom line is this defense has lacked any kind of consistent interior pass rush for *years*. How will this same crew suddenly generate that because the defense is labelled 4-3 instead of 3-4?

Besides, you will likely see an early draft pick at DT to supplement what we already have. Very deep draft for DT's.

Which once again highlights how this move will take away desperately needed potential resources from the OL.

Ernie Sims can and has done it.

Does no one else get that Ernie Sims has already been cut from three 4-3 teams in 6 years?

[rwalters31]

Originally Posted by supercowboy8

The only part I agree with are the safeties.
Ware does fit a DE, did he watch Dallas play with 4 men on the line any this year, I know I did.
Did he not watch Bruce Carter who will be a great tampa 2 WLB
Hatcher is a 3 tech DT and Ratliff can play any position. He played the 1 in the 3-4.
Plus has he ever heard of the draft and free agency where you can find the players you need.
what a bone head

"The only part I agree with are the safeties." We have NO Daryl Woodson on this team. I did read that the SMU safety was a thought as a signal caller in the secondary. I think this is likely as it takes a smart and talented player to play the Safety position in the Tampa 2.

"Ware does fit a DE, did he watch Dallas play with 4 men on the line any this year, I know I did." Ware was so injured at the end of last season That I think he would be a liability as a starting DE in the Tampa 2. I think he will be kept as back up and a situational player as roving LB.

"Hatcher is a 3 tech DT and Ratliff can play any position. He played the 1 in the 3-4." Hatcher may start as the 3 technique DT, But I think they find a bigger DT and Hatcher slide to the 1 technique DT. Ratliff was another DL tackle so injured that he will never be fit to play the Tampa 2 DT as a starter. I see him as the backup to Hatcher and he slides to DE on running plays (situational).

My thoughts

[funkytown]

Goose really needs to stick to the draft.

[SWG9]

Originally Posted by Mr_Bill

Rich Gosselin never scouted a player in his life. That includes DeMarcus Ware.

Goose's task, in that incident, was to do what he actually does best, poll his many NFL contacts to see what they were saying. His resulting report was what swayed the decision toward Ware. By the way, Brian Broaddus had done the same thing for Jones and had come up with the same conclusion.

Jerry Jones has never scouted a player in his life either, yet he's the main decision maker. It makes no difference in Dallas whether or not you've done any scouting, all that matters is whether or not you have Jerry's ear.

As you said yourself, his report is what swayed Dallas to drafting Ware in the first place. Since he was an integral part of the " group" that made that particular decision, why wouldn't I take what he says seriously?

I was off line for a few days and didn't have the oppotunity to follow the thread all that closely, so I'm just responding to some of these now.

[SWG9]

Originally Posted by speedkilz88

I want to correct you on it being Goose's opinion. His write-ups are based on a consensus of what GMs and scouts around the league have told him on the players. Goose doesn't know how to scout talent.

Can I ask what difference that makes?

A journalist wrote a report and showed it to another journalist on the Cowboys' payroll. That journalist was impressed by it and forwarded it onto Jerry Jones, who then largely used that report as the basis for drafting DeMarcus Ware.

What was actually in the report is secondary to how crazy it is that the report was even used in the first place.

[SWG9]

Originally Posted by Bluestang

Maybe you should stick with the thread topic.

Why is that not on topic? Goose was part of the "team" that brought Ware here, now he's saying he doesn't think Ware fits. Given the way our team is structured, his opinion with respect to DeMarcus Ware is just as valid as anyone else's.

[speedkilz88]

Originally Posted by rwalters31

"The only part I agree with are the safeties." We have NO Daryl Woodson on this team. I did read that the SMU safety was a thought as a signal caller in the secondary. I think this is likely as it takes a smart and talented player to play the Safety position in the Tampa 2.

"Ware does fit a DE, did he watch Dallas play with 4 men on the line any this year, I know I did." Ware was so injured at the end of last season That I think he would be a liability as a starting DE in the Tampa 2. I think he will be kept as back up and a situational player as roving LB.

[View Full Quote]"Hatcher is a 3 tech DT and Ratliff can play any position. He played the 1 in the 3-4." Hatcher may start as the 3 technique DT, But I think they find a bigger DT and Hatcher slide to the 1 technique DT. Ratliff was another DL tackle so injured that he will never be fit to play the Tampa 2 DT as a starter. I see him as the backup to Hatcher and he slides to DE on running plays (situational).
My thoughts

#2)I guess that's your opinion, it's a really ignorant and dumb opinion that's not based on reality or common sense though. Ware will start as he always has and will for many more years but at end.

#3)Hatcher can't play 1 technique because that is the NT position. The 3 tecnique is the guy that can shoot one gap.

[speedkilz88]

Originally Posted by SWG9

Can I ask what difference that makes?

A journalist wrote a report and showed it to another journalist on the Cowboys' payroll. That journalist was impressed by it and forwarded it onto Jerry Jones, who then largely used that report as the basis for drafting DeMarcus Ware.

What was actually in the report is secondary to how crazy it is that the report was even used in the first place.

They didn't use it as a basis for drafting Ware, all their scouts wanted Ware. Parcells was the only one they needed to convince and they used that report because it was from a consensus of GMs and scouts from around the league that backed up what their own scouts had been telling Parcells all along and had nothing to do with what some dumb reporter thought at all.

[rwalters31]

Originally Posted by speedkilz88

#2)I guess that's your opinion, it's a really ignorant and dumb opinion that's not based on reality or common sense though. Ware will start as he always has and will for many more years but at end.

#3)Hatcher can't play 1 technique because that is the NT position. The 3 tecnique is the guy that can shoot one gap.

So in your opinion Ware was very effective in the last part of the season? He had three injures with a surgery on one of these this off season. I do believe that the one knowing what he is talking about is NOT you.

Hatcher in a one technique in a 3-4 you would be right. In the 4-3 the 1 technique NT just holds and does not let the run pass. This is what Hatcher did sorta this past year, so this is what I see this coming season. The bigger 3 technique needs to penetrate, stop the run, and collapse the pocket on the QB. This is more than Hatcher can be asked to do. I guess you are right! I do expect Hatcher to be replaced or become the backup next year if we do not get two DT in the draft this year and have to wait until the next draft or the right FA for the second DT. So there, put that in your piece pipe and smoke it!

[Mr_Bill]

Originally Posted by SWG9

Jerry Jones has never scouted a player in his life either, yet he's the main decision maker. It makes no difference in Dallas whether or not you've done any scouting, all that matters is whether or not you have Jerry's ear.

As you said yourself, his report is what swayed Dallas to drafting Ware in the first place. Since he was an integral part of the " group" that made that particular decision, why wouldn't I take what he says seriously?

I was off line for a few days and didn't have the oppotunity to follow the thread all that closely, so I'm just responding to some of these now.

If you can assure me that Gosselin polled the NFL community on Ware's ability to switch to the 4-3 defense, I will take what he says seriously, too. His only source that I can see is Dungy. Dungy is a good source, but I believe here he is mistaken, and I will tell you why.

If Ware plays the wide-9 technique in Kiffin's man-under 4-3 defense, he will be playing in virtually the same position that he has been playing since he got here. The only differences will be that Ware will now play with his hand on the ground nearly all the time, and he will no longer be in coverage 10-15% of the time.

I had an urge to get very sarcastic here, but I will resist the effort.

As for Gosselin, himself, I have no confidence in his ability to form accurate opinions of his own on any football-related matter.

[Clove]

I normally don't trash reports, but I've seen goose's butchered face, and I can tell you that that dude doesn't even know what it feels like to touch a football. The only thing he's ever played in his life is UNO, or played with computer components.

So, dude, you have no expertise in X's and O's you're simply a blabber mouth. What were you saying when we were moving to the 3-4 and didn't have the parts for it? And still never got the NT for one.

Goose, stick to copying other folks draft board.

[dwmyers]

Originally Posted by noshame

Agreed, now let’s zoom into the new millennium

Let's do that. For the past 2 years we've had a multiformation defense that ran to the ball regardless, the kind of thing you claim a 43 would let us do.

And when we did, we got killed by counters and traps, plays such as this one, which the Eagles ran with LeSean McCoy.



Further, the more read options we see, the more defenses are going to have to know their assignments and execute, because otherwise, stuff as old as the Redskin's counter trey or the Statue of Liberty play will just kill you.

D-