Pistol Tony

[SkinsFan28]

Originally Posted by Crash Override

The reason why the zone read is a gimmick is the same reason why Kaepernick had only two attempts for twenty-one yards in the NFC championship. Quite a few of the running plays called up by the 49ers were zone read plays, but the Falcons *always* had their unblocked defensive end responsible for the quarterback, and consequently Kaepernick always handed the ball off. At that point the play is the same as any other running play and is reliant upon good blocking.

I know that one of Kaepernick's runs, and I'm guessing more likely than not his other one, came on a passing play in which he chose to run it.

This is why it's so baffling to me that the Cowboys were utterly unable to stop the zone read in Week 17 against the Redskins. If Spencer and Ware simply stayed with RG3 every time, then the play would become a standard hand-off.

Well, it's a standard hand-off, but the defense is down one man if an OLB or DE stays with the qb each time. That is kind of the point why a runner like Morris or Gore who can get yards after initial contact can excel when the QB can freeze one of the defensive starters, if even for just 1 second.

For the record, teams using the pistol formation in the second half of the season (when d coordinators all had tape from Griffin's first half, and Newton last year) against non-pistol teams:
SF: 7-1, one OT loss to St Louis, avg points scored 30.1
Sea: 4-1, only loss to Atl in playoffs, avg points scored 35.8
Was: 9-5, avg points scored 27.8 (didn't count the carolina loss, or the cleveland win)

Just to be clear, those stats are from the time a team implemented the pistol as a standard part of it's playbook (so when CK started, and in Seattle's case from the Bears game as most commentators agree that is when they added it in to their playbook as a regular part). I didn't count pistol vs pistol games because they would obviously balance out, one winner and one loser per game.

Certainly defensive coordinators are going to study up on this offense, and figure out ways to reduce it's effectiveness, but these numbers would seem to indicate that a lot of OC's are going to try and find ways to bring parts of the scheme into theirs as well.

[cowboys#1]

you want romo to think even more under pressure??

he would probably throw a pick while handing it off

[CowboyChris]

Originally Posted by SkinsFan28

Well, it's a standard hand-off, but the defense is down one man if an OLB or DE stays with the qb each time. That is kind of the point why a runner like Morris or Gore who can get yards after initial contact can excel when the QB can freeze one of the defensive starters, if even for just 1 second.

For the record, teams using the pistol formation in the second half of the season (when d coordinators all had tape from Griffin's first half, and Newton last year) against non-pistol teams:
SF: 7-1, one OT loss to St Louis, avg points scored 30.1
Sea: 4-1, only loss to Atl in playoffs, avg points scored 35.8
Was: 9-5, avg points scored 27.8 (didn't count the carolina loss, or the cleveland win)

[View Full Quote]Just to be clear, those stats are from the time a team implemented the pistol as a standard part of it's playbook (so when CK started, and in Seattle's case from the Bears game as most commentators agree that is when they added it in to their playbook as a regular part). I didn't count pistol vs pistol games because they would obviously balance out, one winner and one loser per game.

Certainly defensive coordinators are going to study up on this offense, and figure out ways to reduce it's effectiveness, but these numbers would seem to indicate that a lot of OC's are going to try and find ways to bring parts of the scheme into theirs as well.

also if they let the DE/OLB come off the line unblocked, it adds another blocker, so its kindve 2 for 1 advantage for the offense. whether this offense goes away or not, it does put pressure on a D.

[jterrell]

Originally Posted by Pokes12

Why can't we incorporate parts of the pistol offense with Tony Romo? He is athletic and smart enough and has as good or better arm than all the other Pistol Offense QBs.
Tony has great escapability and he is fast enough to run foe positive yardage.
Let's not let the NFL run away from us!

As a 1st or 2nd year player yes Romo could have run the pistol quite well.

Not now.

Tony is agile and slippery but he isn't fast.

[jterrell]

Originally Posted by SkinsFan28

Well, it's a standard hand-off, but the defense is down one man if an OLB or DE stays with the qb each time. That is kind of the point why a runner like Morris or Gore who can get yards after initial contact can excel when the QB can freeze one of the defensive starters, if even for just 1 second.

For the record, teams using the pistol formation in the second half of the season (when d coordinators all had tape from Griffin's first half, and Newton last year) against non-pistol teams:
SF: 7-1, one OT loss to St Louis, avg points scored 30.1
Sea: 4-1, only loss to Atl in playoffs, avg points scored 35.8
Was: 9-5, avg points scored 27.8 (didn't count the carolina loss, or the cleveland win)

[View Full Quote]Just to be clear, those stats are from the time a team implemented the pistol as a standard part of it's playbook (so when CK started, and in Seattle's case from the Bears game as most commentators agree that is when they added it in to their playbook as a regular part). I didn't count pistol vs pistol games because they would obviously balance out, one winner and one loser per game.

Certainly defensive coordinators are going to study up on this offense, and figure out ways to reduce it's effectiveness, but these numbers would seem to indicate that a lot of OC's are going to try and find ways to bring parts of the scheme into theirs as well.

The Pistol is a little league type defense. (my preferred youth football offense) It is easily defended once players are used to seeing it unless the athletes are better on the offense. A perfect example is the Wash vs Sea playoff game. Those two defenses see the pistol the most outside of SF and they handled it very well for a 24-14 game with lots of offensive mistakes.

This will be phased out of the league. As a Skins fan you'll be fine because RG3 can run other offenses (if he gets healthy). Not so sure about Seattle with Wilson.

In fact Wash may never run another Pistol formation. RG3 is too valuable to get hit repeatedly. And any decent team will start to blast him on every hand off and every fake. Pretty soon he'd be Mike Vick.

[ufcrules1]

Originally Posted by cowboys#1

you want romo to think even more under pressure??

Romo actually thinks under pressure in the first place? lol @ Romo thinking under pressure.

[SkinsFan28]

Originally Posted by jterrell

The Pistol is a little league type defense. (my preferred youth football offense) It is easily defended once players are used to seeing it unless the athletes are better on the offense. A perfect example is the Wash vs Sea playoff game. Those two defenses see the pistol the most outside of SF and they handled it very well for a 24-14 game with lots of offensive mistakes.

This will be phased out of the league. As a Skins fan you'll be fine because RG3 can run other offenses (if he gets healthy). Not so sure about Seattle with Wilson.

In fact Wash may never run another Pistol formation. RG3 is too valuable to get hit repeatedly. And any decent team will start to blast him on every hand off and every fake. Pretty soon he'd be Mike Vick.

I think, but am willing to accept it if I am wrong, that the pistol formation gives some advantages to the offense that will be incorporated into the NFL as a whole. It gives a downhill runner a two way go, freezing the linebackers for a moment, and also has the qb in the position to throw quick shorts, either to the side, or just behind the linebackers. It forces a defense to cover the whole mid range (0-10 yards) of the field nearly instantly at the snap and that makes individual defenders have to make quick decisions and solid tackles. It can of course be defended, like any offensive scheme, but that doesn't mean it will be phased out at some point in the future.

I agree that Griffin is capable of executing out of any offensive set, and isn't dependent on the pistol, but he does execute it very very well.

Your statement on defenses blasting Griffin from the zone read play is baseless. They did it early on, and he learned early on to show that he was not a runner. The qb doesn't have to hold the fake long enough for a de/olb to get a bead on him and level him, only for the one step to get the RB an open lane.

and now for the part that frustates alot of people. One main reason the zone read can work at this point is because defenses hands are tied so harshly against hard hitting football. You see the hesitation that causes a defender to pull up near a sideline, and the runner stays in rather than stepping out, or a CB not laying a hard hit on a WR, lest a penalty and fine come his way. Same with DE/OLB's in the zone read, its not worth 15yd penalties and gross fines for these players to take hard shots at a qb who may or may not be protected by the refs at the moment the initial split second decision is made. I don't agree with all the 15yd penalties, and think they ought to be reviewed/challengeable, but for now it is the rules, and they give offenses far more advantage to run things like the wildcat or zone read option with less risk to your star players.

[jterrell]

Originally Posted by SkinsFan28

I think, but am willing to accept it if I am wrong, that the pistol formation gives some advantages to the offense that will be incorporated into the NFL as a whole. It gives a downhill runner a two way go, freezing the linebackers for a moment, and also has the qb in the position to throw quick shorts, either to the side, or just behind the linebackers. It forces a defense to cover the whole mid range (0-10 yards) of the field nearly instantly at the snap and that makes individual defenders have to make quick decisions and solid tackles. It can of course be defended, like any offensive scheme, but that doesn't mean it will be phased out at some point in the future.

I agree that Griffin is capable of executing out of any offensive set, and isn't dependent on the pistol, but he does execute it very very well.

[View Full Quote]Your statement on defenses blasting Griffin from the zone read play is baseless. They did it early on, and he learned early on to show that he was not a runner. The qb doesn't have to hold the fake long enough for a de/olb to get a bead on him and level him, only for the one step to get the RB an open lane.

and now for the part that frustates alot of people. One main reason the zone read can work at this point is because defenses hands are tied so harshly against hard hitting football. You see the hesitation that causes a defender to pull up near a sideline, and the runner stays in rather than stepping out, or a CB not laying a hard hit on a WR, lest a penalty and fine come his way. Same with DE/OLB's in the zone read, its not worth 15yd penalties and gross fines for these players to take hard shots at a qb who may or may not be protected by the refs at the moment the initial split second decision is made. I don't agree with all the 15yd penalties, and think they ought to be reviewed/challengeable, but for now it is the rules, and they give offenses far more advantage to run things like the wildcat or zone read option with less risk to your star players.

When the QB is considered a runner the defense can in fact tee off. That has happened more and more with teams even willing to take 15 yard penalties to make those hard hits on QBs. That is the single largest reason this stuff will cease. If RG3 comes back next year but takes another hit in the legs and tears his ACL again because he was running read-option Shanahan will need full-time security. If Redskin fans don't lynch him plenty of folks in the state of Texas will be ready to. RG3 lead insanely effective college offense without needing to run much or use read-option stuff.

The Pistol is just a short shotgun formation. It's benefit is very real. You have a lot of quick options and move the ball quickly making it hard for defenses to react or get upfield pressure. But it's use is largely situational on an NFL level. Deeper shotguns have even more speed to the QBs hand and more time for the QB to read defenses.

We will likely see some elements of that remain in the NFL.

The Read-Option is not new and came into vogue only this year because there were a plethora of very athletic QBs. But it will NOT last. No offense that places the QB in danger regularly will last.

Defenses are simply not adjusted to it yet; but they will be.

As to the two way goes and all that stuff. That's not really anything different from a basic draw play. Every option ever gave you "options" thus a read and thus the actual name. But that hasn't been usable in the NFL in forever as more than a trick play. Assignment football on defense is basically what happens every play and how you stop this.

Great athletes who play QB run a lot early in their careers and it slowly tails off. Or their careers end.

This year it was a nightmare for teams to have to try and scheme for read-option plays within the confines of one week study. But you give Defensive staffs all summer and it will be much less effective next year I promise you. And once it becomes less effective people will go away from it.

Same thing as the wildcat and playing Tebow at QB.

[GimmeTheBall!]

Tony has enough problems running the slingshot.

[SkinsFan28]

Originally Posted by jterrell

When the QB is considered a runner the defense can in fact tee off. That has happened more and more with teams even willing to take 15 yard penalties to make those hard hits on QBs. That is the single largest reason this stuff will cease. If RG3 comes back next year but takes another hit in the legs and tears his ACL again because he was running read-option Shanahan will need full-time security. If Redskin fans don't lynch him plenty of folks in the state of Texas will be ready to. RG3 lead insanely effective college offense without needing to run much or use read-option stuff.

The Pistol is just a short shotgun formation. It's benefit is very real. You have a lot of quick options and move the ball quickly making it hard for defenses to react or get upfield pressure. But it's use is largely situational on an NFL level. Deeper shotguns have even more speed to the QBs hand and more time for the QB to read defenses.

[View Full Quote]We will likely see some elements of that remain in the NFL.

The Read-Option is not new and came into vogue only this year because there were a plethora of very athletic QBs. But it will NOT last. No offense that places the QB in danger regularly will last.

Defenses are simply not adjusted to it yet; but they will be.

As to the two way goes and all that stuff. That's not really anything different from a basic draw play. Every option ever gave you "options" thus a read and thus the actual name. But that hasn't been usable in the NFL in forever as more than a trick play. Assignment football on defense is basically what happens every play and how you stop this.

Great athletes who play QB run a lot early in their careers and it slowly tails off. Or their careers end.

This year it was a nightmare for teams to have to try and scheme for read-option plays within the confines of one week study. But you give Defensive staffs all summer and it will be much less effective next year I promise you. And once it becomes less effective people will go away from it.

Same thing as the wildcat and playing Tebow at QB.

First, Griffin has gotten hurt both times because he didn't know how to end a play safely. Never because of the Pistol Formation, or on a zone-read play.

When the qb is determined to be a runner the defense can tee off, that is true. But Griffin, and other zone read qbs, know before the defense knows that they are not the runner, and Griffin learned quick to show that he is not a runner. That's why we didn't see him getting it a ton after his hand offs in the zone read game late in the season.

Your last statement is just a false comparison. Tebow behind center or a wildcat set lets your defense know it's not going to be a successful deep pass. A pistol formation keeps all the main characters, qb, rb, fb, te and wr, in their "natural" position, so the defense can't pre-snap tee off or dismiss one threat.

Time will tell, but as I said in the earlier post, the pistol formation was used against non-pistol opponents in about 25 games, and had a win loss ratio of 80%. I think the NFL offenses will take note of that. The wildcat never showed anywhere near that amount of promise.

[ryanbabs]

Originally Posted by Pokes12

Why can't we incorporate parts of the pistol offense with Tony Romo? He is athletic and smart enough and has as good or better arm than all the other Pistol Offense QBs.
Tony has great escapability and he is fast enough to run foe positive yardage.
Let's not let the NFL run away from us!

I think being elusive and being a good runner are not the same thing. Tony is elusive.

[T-RO]

Originally Posted by Hostile

Why would we want to? I want more screen passes, and better run blocking from the running game, not a gimmick that will fade fast.

As I argued 3 or 4 years ago...the pistol is NOT a gimmick. And it is NOT going away.

[T-RO]

Originally Posted by ryanbabs

I think being elusive and being a good runner are not the same thing. Tony is elusive.

Pretty much my sentiment. I just don't think Romo would have enough straight line speed.

[jterrell]

Originally Posted by T-RO

As I argued 3 or 4 years ago...the pistol is NOT a gimmick. And it is NOT going away.

But the read-option IS a gimmick and WILL go away.

[SkinsFan28]

Originally Posted by jterrell

But the read-option IS a gimmick and WILL go away.

I don't think the read option goes away entirely, but selective use a few times a game can be effective. The game is so fast on both offense and defense, any thing that the offense can do to make the defense react a split second slower sometimes is enough to give a blocker an edge, or a runner the time to find the crease. As long as you can do it, and not subject the qb to brutal hits, it should find a niche in the NFL