ESPND: Garrett says lack of takeaways doomed Ryan

[ravidubey]

Originally Posted by Doomsday101

I agree but would also add there were many times in 3rd and long where Ryan would rush 3 never getting pressure on the QB and allowing him the time to find a target to pick up the 1st.

Seeing teams like the seahawks in the same situation they would bring the house and get after the QB even if the QB got the pass off he would be forced to throw the quick pass where the DB would come up and make the tackle before the 1st down marker.

Absolutely. I believe though that Ryan didn't trust his safeties and LB's in passing situations. Take the Seattle game for example. Wilson's TD pass to Anthony McCoy happened because the LB couldn't hand coverage off to the safety.

Outside of Spencer and Ware, nobody got even close to the QB-- even on blitzes, so I think Ryan figured it would be better to replace the utterly inneffective pass rushers and blitzers with more players in coverage.

He was damned either way because the talent was overrated as normal. Six, even seven really good players aren't enough if the other four or five absolutely stink.

[Doomsday101]

Originally Posted by ravidubey

Absolutely. I believe though that Ryan didn't trust his safeties and LB's in passing situations. Take the Seattle game for example. Wilson's TD pass to Anthony McCoy happened because the LB couldn't hand coverage off to the safety.

Outside of Spencer and Ware, nobody got even close to the QB-- even on blitzes, so I think Ryan figured it would be better to replace the utterly inneffective pass rushers with more players in coverage.

Hatcher had come up with some good pressure in some big moments. I just think Ryan even the in the 2011 season would use 3 man rushes and they failed. Even if all you accomplish is getting the QB to throw the ball quicker it still allows the DB to come up and make the tackle before the 1st down.

Rushing 3 it allows the WR to find the soft spot and convert and they did.

I admit it is a major pet peeve of mine to sit in 3 man rushes at the very least send 4. 3 man rush is like handing the 1st down to the opposing team

[elcowboi]

Originally Posted by InmanRoshi

I wish they kept stats on on defensive penalties that lead to opponent first downs on failed 3rd down conversions (ie jumping offsides on 3rd and 4). Those plays are the equivalent to an offensive giveaway.

That's a very good point. Too many times the opposing offense got to stay on the field after a dumb penalty on third down.

[ravidubey]

Originally Posted by Doomsday101

Hatcher had come up with some good pressure in some big moments. I just think Ryan even the in the 2011 season would use 3 man rushes and they failed. Even if all you accomplish is getting the QB to throw the ball quicker it still allows the DB to come up and make the tackle before the 1st down.

Rushing 3 it allows the WR to find the soft spot and convert and they did.

I admit it is a major pet peeve of mine to sit in 3 man rushes at the very least send 4. 3 man rush is like handing the 1st down to the opposing team

3-man rush usually works if you have the right three guys rushing. WIth 8 guys flooding zones it should be very hard to make a play.

But if they apply no pressure at all, like ever, then yeah I agree with you.

You have to have pressure or else the QB can pick you apart.

[Doomsday101]

Originally Posted by ravidubey

3-man rush usually works if you have the right three guys rushing. WIth 8 guys flooding zones it should be very hard to make a play.

But if they apply no pressure at all, like ever, then yeah I agree with you.

You have to have pressure or else the QB can pick you apart.

I don't see many 3 man rushing vs 5 to 6 blockers as a battle anyone will win very often. If you give a QB and WR time they will find a spot in the coverage to make the play.

I understand the theory of the 3 man rush and hey if your up by a couple of scores with time running out then great but this BS of rushing 3 you are not going to get pressure on the QB the vast majority of the time no matter who the defense is.

[MichaelWinicki]

Originally Posted by Sasquatch

For me, this is the crux of the issue:

"Ryan tried to do too much with his complex scheme, often confusing players."

But this was a much more conspicuous problem in previous seasons which raises the question of the timing of the firing after a season where the defense played fairly well.

The defense played fairly well–when? Which season are you referring to?

[Sasquatch]

Originally Posted by MichaelWinicki

The defense played fairly well–when? Which season are you referring to?

Weren't we considered a top 10 defense for the first half of the season before injuries began to settle in or am I just imagining that?

[Doomsday101]

Originally Posted by Sasquatch

Weren't we considered a top 10 defense for the first half of the season before injuries began to settle in or am I just imagining that?

In yardage but we are not getting the turnovers. I hated to see Ryan lose his job but I have to say I expected a more aggressive style of defense than what Ryan was putting out there.

[MichaelWinicki]

Originally Posted by Sasquatch

Weren't we considered a top 10 defense for the first half of the season before injuries began to settle in or am I just imagining that?

For a while yeah. They were in the top 10 in yardage.

But like Dooms said they weren't getting turnovers and they weren't getting sacks.

[Doomsday101]

Originally Posted by MichaelWinicki

For a while yeah. They were in the top 10 in yardage.

But like Dooms said they weren't getting turnovers and they weren't getting sacks.

Exactly. What killed me is normally when you put the other team in a down and distance where they must throw the ball, we just did not get after them. That is when you attack when you know the other team has to throw the ball but Ryan seldom did.

[Hoofbite]

Originally Posted by Doomsday101

Offense should be looked at and over the last 8 games of the year did avg 28 points don't know about you but I think 28 point a game avg is pretty damn good.

Yes this offense has a lot of work to do and parts that need to be added but the offense was still more productive than a defense who could not win 3rd down battle , all to often would rush 3 men in passing situations and did not get turnover.

It was not 1 thing that hurt Ryan.

As far as I'm concerned Garrett job as HC hinges on winning and losing. I fully expect his job will be on the line this coming season if the Cowboys fail to advance into the post season then Garrett will likely be fired.

28 points per game?

I hope you aren't counting the defensive scores from the Philly games.

[Hoofbite]

Originally Posted by MichaelWinicki

The defense played fairly well–when? Which season are you referring to?

The defense had some good games. Unfortunately a couple of them were completely masked by defensive scores for the other team.

[Doomsday101]

Originally Posted by Hoofbite

28 points per game?

I hope you aren't counting the defensive scores from the Philly games.

1 game does not make the entire make up of the avg. I don't disagree the offense need to do things to become consistent in their ability to control the ball but the Cowboys are very capable of moving the ball down the field quickly and putting up points. I think a big reason it reflects this was the emergence of Dez. He really started putting things together and become a bigger factor than he was early in the season.

To gain consistency within the offense then I think you look to the guys up front.

[MichaelWinicki]

Originally Posted by Hoofbite

The defense had some good games. Unfortunately a couple of them were completely masked by defensive scores for the other team.

True.

But ultimately this defense ended up not meeting a lot of folks expectations and a change of coordinator was enacted.

The same thing happened to the offensive coordinator.

[Hoofbite]

Originally Posted by MichaelWinicki

True.

But ultimately this defense ended up not meeting a lot of folks expectations and a change of coordinator was enacted.

The same thing happened to the offensive coordinator.

Well, anyone who had high expectations after the 8th or 9th game when Dallas was calling guys who were sitting at home to fill in for multiple holes likely had unrealistic expectations.

I would agree on the OC part except the amount of time each was given which kind of makes it not the same. It's not like Red was stripped of his duties after the team was 31st in turnovers in 2008.

Honestly, I think there's more to it than TOs alone. If it was TOs, it was completely a knee jerk reaction to what was undoubtedly a rare occurrence. It's not like 16 TOs is the norm. It was Rob's worst season as a coordinator in that regard and he's been on some horrid teams.

A little bit of playing from behind every week, a little bit of bad bounces, and a little bit of simply not getting it done.

I think there were a few factors involved.

It's not like Paul Pasqualoni earned the DC job by leading the defense to 20 turnovers in those 8 games during his interim DC time after Wade was fired.