Bob Sturm talks Cowboys with David Newbury and Rafael Vela (long)

[TwentyOne]

Originally Posted by Idgit

Thanks, WG. Good stuff.

Interesting that from Vela's list, you don't really see that it's the teams with the most picks that end up with the strongest teams, necessarily. And the other teams down there with us at the bottom are pretty decent, too.

Yep thats a very good point. And it's kind of funny how he still tried to stick to his reasoning even when everybody can see he is wrong.

Vela was making a hypothesis by assuming that "draft picks are the major currency and the league plays a version of Jerry's wealth distribution game". But after looking at the results that list just proves thats it's not that way.

All he tried to do is put JJ in a bad light and it backfired.

[Idgit]

Originally Posted by TwoDeep3

I did not read the posts to this thread at all until I read the entire article. What went through my mind as I read Vela's list was someone would pick out Detroit and try and blunt the message all three journalists were addressing.

It took one post.

And in all the dancing, ignoring the results of this team seems to be America's Team favorite indoor sport.

They are where they are because they compound mistakes by making more mistakes.

You could almost take this article, sift through the threads over the last two seasons and see these very comments without a nice little chart by some of the fans here.

It is evident what causes this.

It is less so what will stop the causal component.

Not just Detroit. It was Detroit, KC, and Miami that caught my eye up top. And the Saints and the Jets that caught my eye on the bottom. And I'm going to take your post here as confirmation that you saw exactly the same thing, and the only difference was that, instead of evaluating it honestly, you instead attempted to make the observation about something it's not.

I don't think the Vela data is very telling. So it goes. He's a good blogger, though, and at least defends his opinion. If you want damning, for my money, Newbury's "As of today Dallas has $90 million committed to 10 players" line is a lot more indicative of the problem than Vela's two-thirds-of-a-league-chart-from-an-arbitrary-time-period-that-leads-to-no-conclusion-at-all does.

[TwoDeep3]

Originally Posted by Idgit

Not just Detroit. It was Detroit, KC, and Miami that caught my eye up top. And the Saints and the Jets that caught my eye on the bottom. And I'm going to take your post here as confirmation that you saw exactly the same thing, and the only difference was that, instead of evaluating it honestly, you instead attempted to make the observation about something it's not.

I don't think the Vela data is very telling. So it goes. He's a good blogger, though, and at least defends his opinion. If you want damning, for my money, Newbury's "As of today Dallas has $90 million committed to 10 players" line is a lot more indicative of the problem than Vela's two-thirds-of-a-league-chart-from-an-arbitrary-time-period-that-leads-to-no-conclusion-at-all does.

What is the record of this team, not some other team over the last sixteen years?

Answer that.

That always seems to be the proposition people leave out when they make excuses because someone else is doing something or not doing something.

Poor drafting, mistakes made after signing players to too much money and getting away from the draft.

There is a distinct equation here as to why THIS TEAM has been sucking eggs.

What other teams are doing or not doing, there is empirical evidence that this team has made one poor decision after another.

When will you admit that without a caveat and with conviction? No dancing.

Because there are simple reasons why Dallas has been also-rans.

Further, note in my original comment in this thread that I stated they could just about take all those comments, including the 90 million dollar comment, and go find posters who have been saying this over the last two years in one form or another.

Most of those posters have been earmarked as negative.

Truth will set you free idgit.

[Idgit]

Originally Posted by TwoDeep3

What is the record of this team, not some other team over the last sixteen years?

Answer that.

That always seems to be the proposition people leave out when they make excuses because someone else is doing something or not doing something.

Poor drafting, mistakes made after signing players to too much money and getting away from the draft.

There is a distinct equation here as to why THIS TEAM has been sucking eggs.

What other teams are doing or not doing, there is empirical evidence that this team has made one poor decision after another.

When will you admit that without a caveat and with conviction? No dancing.

Because there are simple reasons why Dallas has been also-rans.

[View Full Quote]Further, note in my original comment in this thread that I stated they could just about take all those comments, including the 90 million dollar comment, and go find posters who have been saying this over the last two years in one form or another.

Most of those posters have been earmarked as negative.

Truth will set you free idgit.

And all of this has exactly zero to do with my comment which you responded to.

When it comes to personnel, this team has made a number of poor personnel decisions. They blew the Doug Free re-signing. The Roy Williams trade was a huge mistake. The Marion Barber extension. The Ratliff extension. The Felix Jones pick. The Fasano and Bennett picks. The mid-round OL picks from Parcels on. This isn't news, and it's not anything I've ever contested. In fact, it's all stuff I've freely admitted in thread after thread, though it largely gets ignored because at the same time, I'm also able to acknowledge things the team's done right during that same time frame.

Put all of that together, though, and it still doesn't make Vela's draft picks chart indicative of anything in particular. You can choose to ignore what the chart actually says if you care to, or how arbitrary the period is. But, if you want to criticize the Cowboys' recent mistakes, there are a lot better ways to actually do it and have it make sense.

All that said, as I mentioned in my OP and you ignored for whatever reason, I think the article was mostly good, critical stuff. I enjoyed it.

[TwoDeep3]

Wrong.

I stated emphatically that I looked at the chart and my first thought is someone will point out Detroit.

I was sugar coating it.

What I really wanted to say is someone will come along and make an excuse. As they always do.

Sorry you got caught in the trap, but your comment is the very same as so many on this board wherein you try to soften the blow of this team's ineptitude.

Invariably if someone makes a comment, there will be someone else coming back with an anecdotal incident and suggest the first thing isn't correct or is the norm.

This is a drafting league now and the team we follow is making mistakes and using FA to cover those. But they are paying too much therefore they are getting hosed on the cap.

I look at the team and see the results.

Others choose to dance.

[Idgit]

Originally Posted by TwoDeep3

Wrong.

I stated emphatically that I looked at the chart and my first thought is someone will point out Detroit.

I was sugar coating it.

What I really wanted to say is someone will come along and make an excuse. As they always do.

Sorry you got caught in the trap, but your comment is the very same as so many on this board wherein you try to soften the blow of this team's ineptitude.

Invariably if someone makes a comment, there will be someone else coming back with an anecdotal incident and suggest the first thing isn't correct or is the norm.

This is a drafting league now and the team we follow is making mistakes and using FA to cover those. But they are paying too much therefore they are getting hosed on the cap.

I look at the team and see the results.

Others choose to dance.

My posts are very clear, and pretty obvious. I'm content to let them stand: I see and acknowledge the drafting mistakes. You don't have any special powers of perception, and what you think you're seeing as dancing is not dancing at all.

All that notwithstanding, Vela's chart isn't very useful. There are better ways to make the point that the team we follow is making mistakes and using FA to cover them.

[burmafrd]

Originally Posted by CowboyMcCoy

I can see how you'd debate Spencer's resigning due to money. But there's not even a debate for the question of should we extend Romo....

maybe because Romo has been outstanding for much longer then 1 year.

Maybe because Romo is a QB and Spencer is not.

[Doomsay]

Thanks WG, great article.

Unfortunately, this GM is never honest with himself. Jerry truly believes that the Cowboys are close to being a Super Bowl contender. It’s the reason he traded a 1st, 3rd and 6th round pick for Roy Williams and gave Leonard Davis $50 million. Jerry is also terrified of making a move that will delay a Super Bowl appearance. That fear lead to him overpaying Free, Austin and Williams. Over 20% of the 2012 cap was tied up by dead money. Dallas decided to spread part of the cap penalty and dead money to 2013 so they could be active in free agency. Jerry chose to go for it again in 2012 instead of planning for the future. Jerry gave Carr $60 million, Livings $18.7 million, Bernadeau $11.5 million and Dan Connor $6.5 million. Instead of drafting Spencer’s replacement Jerry decided to trade his 2nd round pick for another corner. I love Mo Claiborne but I hate the trade. Those decisions could keep Dallas from resigning Spencer and force them to release [View Full Quote]serviceable veterans like Sensabaugh and Austin.[/FONT]

Great detail of what I believe is a perpetual short term strategy.

[xwalker]

Originally Posted by TwoDeep3

Wrong.

I stated emphatically that I looked at the chart and my first thought is someone will point out Detroit.

I was sugar coating it.

What I really wanted to say is someone will come along and make an excuse. As they always do.

Sorry you got caught in the trap, but your comment is the very same as so many on this board wherein you try to soften the blow of this team's ineptitude.

Invariably if someone makes a comment, there will be someone else coming back with an anecdotal incident and suggest the first thing isn't correct or is the norm.

This is a drafting league now and the team we follow is making mistakes and using FA to cover those. But they are paying too much therefore they are getting hosed on the cap.

I look at the team and see the results.

Others choose to dance.

Originally Posted by Idgit

My posts are very clear, and pretty obvious. I'm content to let them stand: I see and acknowledge the drafting mistakes. You don't have any special powers of perception, and what you think you're seeing as dancing is not dancing at all.

All that notwithstanding, Vela's chart isn't very useful. There are better ways to make the point that the team we follow is making mistakes and using FA to cover them.

It's 2 separate issues. The fact that Vela's list does not correlate with the point that he is trying to make is a completely separate issue from what the Cowboys have done. I don't see pointing out the flaw with the list as someone making an excuse for the Cowboys.

[DFWJC]

Originally Posted by TwentyOne

Yep thats a very good point. And it's kind of funny how he still tried to stick to his reasoning even when everybody can see he is wrong.

Vela was making a hypothesis by assuming that "draft picks are the major currency and the league plays a version of Jerry's wealth distribution game". But after looking at the results that list just proves thats it's not that way.

All he tried to do is put JJ in a bad light and it backfired.

Yeah, I noticed that too. On the surface, the list didn't match results.

But part of his point was that if you are not drafting well already (ie, your hit rate is lower) than you need more ammo to get the same results.

This does not apply to "good drafting teams" who can, year after year, get good results with whatever number of picks they have. On the other hand, at least over this 20 year span, you could give Detroit 100 picks and they would still blow it. There was time that their drafting made our look brilliant.

Anyway, I think we've drafted a little more sanely the last 2-3 years.

BTW, I think Ryan pushed heavily to move up for Claiborne. His big complaint was that we had no CBs...so they spent very heavily on two new ones in Claiborne (1st and 2nd rd picks) and Carr (50 million).
When the defesne still ranked near the bottom, I think Jerry was put out--even though much of the core was gutted with injuries.