We need to keep Victor Butler

[CowboysFaninDC]

Originally Posted by TheCount

One thing not a lot of people are talking about is what happens if Ware gets injured this year? The guy is a warrior and doesn't want to come off the field even when he's hurting, but he was largely ineffective down the stretch and he's getting older.

If he has to miss a couple of games, who's taking over as a pass rusher on the weak side if Anthony Spencer isn't here? We currently have NO ONE on the roster I'd be happy with, and a lot of the draft focus has been on a DE to play the strong side.

Butler was just okay as a 3-4 OLB, but don't forget the guy had 22 sacks in his final two years before leaving Oregon State. He has a history as a pass rusher, and a 4-3 may be just what the doctor ordered.

[View Full Quote]If we end up not keeping Spencer, I'd divert some of those funds to Butler even if he's just a rotational guy and an insurance policy. Ware's neck and shoulder/arm are a bit worrying and we at least have a few years of watching Butler take on NFL talent, which is not the case for these draft guys.

he is way too undersized to play DE in a 4-3, which is hte position ware plays. he would be engulfed in the running game and wouldn't be a good match up against LTs as a DE. what he did in college hasn't been replicated in the pros and that's the proof we need. not what he did 3 years ago against inferior competition, but what he has done in the NFL.

he is a liability in coverage. has missed assignments. is a liability against the run. moving to a 4-3 DE ain't going to make any of those better. he just doesn't fit

[WoodysGirl]

Originally Posted by xwalker

At the time that was my thought also; however, it turns out that Butler had minimal or zero playing time in the last game or 2 due to an injury.

I knew something was up when Brady Poppinga was playing DE and Butler was nowhere in sight.

Yeah, but if I go by reports, then Ware was playing one-armed for the last six games, so my reasoning still applies.

I think a 1-yr deal for depth is much more reasonable than a multi-year deal.

[jobberone]

Originally Posted by CowboysFaninDC

he is way too undersized to play DE in a 4-3, which is hte position ware plays. he would be engulfed in the running game and wouldn't be a good match up against LTs as a DE. what he did in college hasn't been replicated in the pros and that's the proof we need. not what he did 3 years ago against inferior competition, but what he has done in the NFL.

he is a liability in coverage. has missed assignments. is a liability against the run. moving to a 4-3 DE ain't going to make any of those better. he just doesn't fit

Whether or not anyone agrees, this is the question with him unless you plan to play him as a LB.

I just don't have a good feel for him as a run stopper. My impression is like yours and he can't stand up to the run well enough. I've wondered if he wouldn't make a good Will. I've penciled in Carter as the Will but Carter could play the Sam. There's a lot of options at LB. I'm just not certain he can play the run well enough to trust. I have no doubts about his ability to pressure the QB and for those that want Freeney here this guy could be another solution to a spot rusher on passing downs as well.

[xwalker]

Originally Posted by CowboysFaninDC

he is way too undersized to play DE in a 4-3, which is hte position ware plays. he would be engulfed in the running game and wouldn't be a good match up against LTs as a DE. what he did in college hasn't been replicated in the pros and that's the proof we need. not what he did 3 years ago against inferior competition, but what he has done in the NFL.

he is a liability in coverage. has missed assignments. is a liability against the run. moving to a 4-3 DE ain't going to make any of those better. he just doesn't fit

I agree that he is not good against the run, but his size is not out of range for a WDE in a Kiffin defense.

For reference, Seattle has Bruce Irvin (6'3 248) playing WDE.

Victor Butler 6'2 245

[Future]

This team needs new blood. He's been around too long and done nothing to warrant a new contract, IMO.

[CowboysFaninDC]

Originally Posted by xwalker

I agree that he is not good against the run, but his size is not out of range for a WDE in a Kiffin defense.

For reference, Seattle has Bruce Irvin (6'3 248) playing WDE.

Victor Butler 6'2 245

I would agree from a size perspective. but Seattle plays a different defense than what kiffin does. they also have a lot of talent on DL and LBs, which allows Irvin just to rush the passer and not worry about anything else. the concern on Irvin coming out of collge was if he would hold up against the run. in their defense, he doesn't really play the run. that's not his role.

[CowboysFaninDC]

Originally Posted by jobberone

Whether or not anyone agrees, this is the question with him unless you plan to play him as a LB.

I just don't have a good feel for him as a run stopper. My impression is like yours and he can't stand up to the run well enough. I've wondered if he wouldn't make a good Will. I've penciled in Carter as the Will but Carter could play the Sam. There's a lot of options at LB. I'm just not certain he can play the run well enough to trust. I have no doubts about his ability to pressure the QB and for those that want Freeney here this guy could be another solution to a spot rusher on passing downs as well.

I am concerned about his ability in space and in those roles he would get matched up against TEs and RBs. he is not that good in turning and running with TEs or RBs. his role was very limited with dallas. come in on obvious pasisng situations and rush the passer. and some of his sacks were coverage sacks. the time spencer was hurt and he got to play extensively, he was exposed badly

[xwalker]

Originally Posted by CowboysFaninDC

I would agree from a size perspective. but Seattle plays a different defense than what kiffin does. they also have a lot of talent on DL and LBs, which allows Irvin just to rush the passer and not worry about anything else. the concern on Irvin coming out of collge was if he would hold up against the run. in their defense, he doesn't really play the run. that's not his role.

There have been an array of posts about Seattle's defense being similar to Kiffin's. Also, Kiffin himself told the players to study Seattle's defense to get an idea of what he would be implementing.

[CowboysFaninDC]

Originally Posted by xwalker

There have been an array of posts about Seattle's defense being similar to Kiffin's. Also, Kiffin himself told the players to study Seattle's defense to get an idea of what he would be implementing.

every one thinks kiffin is going to run his tampa cover 2 defense, but he doesn't have the personnel to do that. also we can't think kiffin is boxed into one idea. My post may not have clearly indicated that. what I meant is the tampa cover 2 (which kiffin ran in tampa and then dungy in Indy). Kiffin is probably open minded to change his defense and adapt to his personnel (or so I hope). what tampa ran with him a few years back is similar yet different than seattle. what he probably is referring to is an attacking defense, which seattle does. seattle doesn't play the cover 2 defense, with CBs playing tight coverage and the front 7 attacking and not allowing the QB much time to make throws. they have the shut down corners that allows them to do that.

regardless of the defense, if you look at all the good defenses, it starts with the DL and front 7. it takes talent to pull it off. what seattle is running is more similar to what dallas ran back in the 90s. with haley attacking the QB (ala Irvin), deep and talented front 7. playing some tight coverage like they used Smith and roaming Safties in woodson

[jobberone]

Originally Posted by CowboysFaninDC

I am concerned about his ability in space and in those roles he would get matched up against TEs and RBs. he is not that good in turning and running with TEs or RBs. his role was very limited with dallas. come in on obvious pasisng situations and rush the passer. and some of his sacks were coverage sacks. the time spencer was hurt and he got to play extensively, he was exposed badly

I'm not a huge fan but I just don't know the guy. I know he has the talent to rush the passer although he's not developed many moves. That's probably because he doesn't have the strength and/or technique to bull rush and either doesn't have or we didn't see enough snaps to see an inside move or spin move.

This guy is more of a Will IMO although I tend to agree with you about his coverage abilities. However, I'm not certain. My guess is someone will pay more for his services than we will. If not then they'll offer him some low contract likely with incentives and let him compete at LB and/or DE.

[skinsscalper]

Victor Butler doesn't offer anything more than a draft pick would offer at a much cheaper price. No sense in extending a JAG when you can match his production with any number of guys coming out of college.

If he gets a new contract it needs to come from another team.

[Clove]

just like Romo, we need to start finding the next starting pass rusher

[Erik_H]

Originally Posted by WoodysGirl

I can't look past the fact that the team preferred to put a very hobbled D-Ware towards the end of the season than a seemingly healthy Victor Butler.

At most, the team should make a 1-yr qualifying offer to see how well he converts in the 4-3. But IMO, he's not worth getting a multiple year contract.

I'm not defending Butler here and don't thinkin he's worth anyhting more than a bsci one year min type deal. But I'm pretty sure he had a groin injury (or a hammy)at the end of the year. I'm positive he was out with it in the last game. It was questionable as to whether he'd play (turns out he didn't)

So it was a hobbled Ware over a (possible somewhat less) hobbled Butler

[TheCount]

Originally Posted by WoodysGirl

Yeah, but if I go by reports, then Ware was playing one-armed for the last six games, so my reasoning still applies.

I think a 1-yr deal for depth is much more reasonable than a multi-year deal.

I don't know about that. We've seen repeatedly that the stars of this team are allowed to play as long as they are willing and the doctors give the green light. You think they'd tell Ware he couldn't play if they let Witten play with a damaged spleen and Romo play with broken ribs?

Especially in favor of another injured, lesser player? How would that look?

[mmillman]

Butler looks like a guy that Dallas would regret letting go. I suspect he could flourish somewhere else if used properly