Report: US no closer to Iraq goals

[silverbear]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080406/...iraq_no_closer

BAGHDAD, Iraq - The United States is no closer to achieving its goals in Iraq than it was a year ago but a quick military withdrawal could lead to massive chaos and even genocide, according to a report released Sunday by a U.S. think tank.


The U.S. Institute of Peace report was written by experts who advised the Iraq Study Group, a panel mandated by Congress to offer recommendations on U.S. policy in Iraq in 2006...

...The report cited security improvements in Iraq since the buildup of U.S. forces in 2007, but credited factors outside U.S. control, such as help from mostly Sunni fighters who turned against al-Qaida and a truce by a Shiite militia.

"The U.S. is no closer to being able to leave Iraq than it was a year ago," it concluded. "Lasting political development could take five to 10 years of full, unconditional U.S. commitment to Iraq."...

[View Full Quote]..."Without political progress, the U.S. risks getting bogged down in Iraq for a long time to come," it concluded.

Yeah, that surge has REALLY made a difference; here we are, five years after invading, and our own experts are telling us we have made no real progress... five years after invading, and they forecast that it will take another five to ten years before we can even think about getting out of there...

Well, what makes them think that we can accomplish in the next five to ten years what we have been unable to accomplish in the last five?? How long have the Israelis been battling terrorism at home?? If we stay there, things will remain the same, nothing will change... we are doing precisely what I've said we were doing all along, propping up a government at the point of a gun... the refusal of 1000 Iraqi soldiers to fight in Basra is symptomatic of the problems we've created there...

We've lost 4000 good young American soldiers, and STILL "mission accomplished" is not in sight... that's what they call a "quagmire", folks...

[Jon88]

[Jordan55]

Rebuttal
From a conservative rag


http://www.weeklystandard.com/Check....=14933&r=bmtiu

[iceberg]

Originally Posted by silverbear

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080406/...iraq_no_closer



Yeah, that surge has REALLY made a difference; here we are, five years after invading, and our own experts are telling us we have made no real progress... five years after invading, and they forecast that it will take another five to ten years before we can even think about getting out of there...

Well, what makes them think that we can accomplish in the next five to ten years what we have been unable to accomplish in the last five?? How long have the Israelis been battling terrorism at home?? If we stay there, things will remain the same, nothing will change... we are doing precisely what I've said we were doing all along, propping up a government at the point of a gun... the refusal of 1000 Iraqi soldiers to fight in Basra is symptomatic of the problems we've created there...

[View Full Quote]We've lost 4000 good young American soldiers, and STILL "mission accomplished" is not in sight... that's what they call a "quagmire", folks...

you've already proven you won't recognize progress. it's counter to your own personal goals. i also find it funny an article YOU point to says we can't pull out now or it would result in chaos. yet, you and your singular vision says in another thread you won't vote for anyone unless they have a plan to get us the "bleep" out of there.

so do you now cherry pick into your own articles and pull out what props up YOUR argument and the rest is wrong? i don't filter so easily, bear.

[silverbear]

Originally Posted by Jon88

Sorry, Jon, this issue is NOT going away... you can count on the Democrats beating that horse right up til November, as they should...

Besides, it can only be a "dead horse" if the horse is dead, y'know, and the Iraq war is very much alive...

So you can count on me continuing to bang that drum at every opportunity... I HATE this war, and I won't be content until all our soldiers are out of there...

[iceberg]

Originally Posted by silverbear

Sorry, Jon, this issue is NOT going away... you can count on the Democrats beating that horse right up til November, as they should...

Besides, it can only be a "dead horse" if the horse is dead, y'know, and the Iraq war is very much alive...

So you can count on me continuing to bang that drum at every opportunity... I HATE this war, and I won't be content until all our soldiers are out of there...

these the same democrats who before bush was ever president or could "lie" to everyone they also said saddam had WMD and must go but they were wrong, not liars? just wondering.

[vta]

Well if the goal was to simply invade a country with the intention of getting out as soon as possible, then I suppose this article would have merit.

But that's not the goal, so whether or not the U.S. is closer to it's goal than a year ago, is in no way indicated in what is written in this article.

[silverbear]

Originally Posted by Jordan55

Rebuttal
From a conservative rag


http://www.weeklystandard.com/Check....=14933&r=bmtiu

Worse, a conservative rag whose senior writer freely admits they have at best a casual relationship with the truth...

I mean, right from the opening sentence, you read "as the reduction in violence in Iraq becomes incontestable"... uhhhh, incontestable to WHO?? I'm reading that violence is once again surging in freakin' Baghdad, and that's the area the "surge" was supposed to "pacifiy"...

Having started that propaganda piece with a blatant lie, I found no reason to read further... you really ought to try to find yourself some news outlets that are more credible...

[REDVOLUTION]

Originally Posted by silverbear

Yeah, that surge has REALLY made a difference; here we are, five years after invading, and our own experts are telling us we have made no real progress... five years after invading, and they forecast that it will take another five to ten years before we can even think about getting out of there...

These things take time.
You CANNOT have play by play on a war and its progress.

Check out the story behind our own Declarion of Independence of 1776. Jully 4th right? or was it?

Originally Posted by iceberg

you've already proven you won't recognize progress. it's counter to your own personal goals. i also find it funny an article YOU point to says we can't pull out now or it would result in chaos. yet, you and your singular vision says in another thread you won't vote for anyone unless they have a plan to get us the "bleep" out of there.

so do you now cherry pick into your own articles and pull out what props up YOUR argument and the rest is wrong? i don't filter so easily, bear.

In a way I cannot blame some for not recognizing or wanting to recognize progress. The leftist media wont allow it. We are what we are told in large part.

To say that there has been no progress in Iraq or Afghanistan is just uninformed. Our media could be a little more honest with us instead of just money/agenda driven.

[Doomsday101]

Originally Posted by silverbear

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080406/...iraq_no_closer



Yeah, that surge has REALLY made a difference; here we are, five years after invading, and our own experts are telling us we have made no real progress... five years after invading, and they forecast that it will take another five to ten years before we can even think about getting out of there...

Well, what makes them think that we can accomplish in the next five to ten years what we have been unable to accomplish in the last five?? How long have the Israelis been battling terrorism at home?? If we stay there, things will remain the same, nothing will change... we are doing precisely what I've said we were doing all along, propping up a government at the point of a gun... the refusal of 1000 Iraqi soldiers to fight in Basra is symptomatic of the problems we've created there...
[View Full Quote]
We've lost 4000 good young American soldiers, and STILL "mission accomplished" is not in sight... that's what they call a "quagmire", folks...

I like how you pick and choose from the entire artical that you post as some kind of statement of US failure. Granted there is still work to be done especially on the political side in Iraq but progress is taking place despite your failure to understand. Some of these same experts hollered how Iraq would be in Civil War and that did not come to pass either. Please continue to paint the one sided picture it really shows your true colors.

[vta]

Originally Posted by silverbear

Worse, a conservative rag whose senior writer freely admits they have at best a casual relationship with the truth...

I mean, right from the opening sentence, you read "as the reduction in violence in Iraq becomes incontestable"... uhhhh, incontestable to WHO?? I'm reading that violence is once again surging in freakin' Baghdad, and that's the area the "surge" was supposed to "pacifiy"...

Having started that propaganda piece with a blatant lie, I found no reason to read further... you really ought to try to find yourself some news outlets that are more credible...

That's quite an interesting attitude to take.
Considering what you posted as the OT; which facts correlate with it being anything more than a propoganda piece itself?

It's predicated on a supposed goal of the war and in using this, tries to state a truth, which it can't.

Who, in any position of authoriy has stated that the goal is to leave Iraq any time soon? At which point during any speeches given, by those in authority to make decisions, has anyone said that the goal is to simply leave?

Yes, they say we can't leave until the Iraqi's can take care of themselves, but this is simply double talk for those discontent with the war.

How is this article rooted in any kind of reality, when it's position on what the goals of the war are differ from reality?

[silverbear]

Originally Posted by iceberg

you've already proven you won't recognize progress.

Show me some, and I'll recognize it... I have just posted an article from the think tank that advised the Iraq Study Group in 2006, saying there is no real progress being made...

That was the whole point of the article, ice; did you even bother to read it?? I thought it was a compelling indictment of this administration's strategy in Iraq...

it's counter to your own personal goals.

If there was any progress we could point to, I'd admit as much... I have no idea why you're trying to paint me as some kind of liar here, but it won't work...

Your problem with me is that I stand up and speak what I see to be the truth, not that I lie... your problem is that I not only speak what I see to be the truth, I defend that truth...

i also find it funny an article YOU point to says we can't pull out now or it would result in chaos. yet, you and your singular vision says in another thread you won't vote for anyone unless they have a plan to get us the "bleep" out of there.

Exactly... I have also said that I don't CARE about Iraq... that whole s***hole of a country is not worth one dead American soldier, let alone 4000 of 'em... if they weren't sitting on a jillion gallons of oil, we would never have cared about them...

Yes, I have addressed the "chaos in Iraq" argument, repeatedly... but since you apparently missed my response, I'll address it one more time, just for you:

We created chaos in Iraq, when we invaded... after the invasion, what was easily predictable did in fact happen, Iraq descended into a bloody civil war, wherein Shiite, Sunni and Kurd vie for control of the country... it was inevitable once we created the power vaccuum in that country, Dubya and his boys were apparently the only onces too STUPID to anticipate what happened...

Chaos will reign in Iraq so long as we remain an occupying army, and yes, the minute we get out, chaos will reign supreme... it is completely inevitable, there's not a thing we can do to stop it... this is the lesson we SHOULD have learned from the Israelis, but again, our leaders were either too stupid or too arrogant to think about what they were doing...

So, if we remain there ten more years, I have no confidence that things will be any better than they are right now... chaos will STILL reign... and whenever we do finally get out of there, chaos will again reign, until those people decide FOR THEMSELVES what kind of government they want...

The truth is, we're only there because we're desperately afraid that the form of government they'll choose will be another radical, Islamic fundamentalist government... but y'know, it's up to the Iraqi people, not us, to decide those issues...

so do you now cherry pick into your own articles and pull out what props up YOUR argument and the rest is wrong?

If I was doing that, I wouldn't have linked you to the entire article, and you know it... in fact, I addressed their claims that we needed to remain there for at least another five or ten years quite directly... I said that nothing would be different then than it is now, except more people will be dead... I said that we should ask the Israelis how it's worked out for them, battling terrorism for what, fifty years plus now??

And are they any closer to being safe from such terrorism than they were back then??

[silverbear]

Originally Posted by iceberg

these the same democrats who before bush was ever president or could "lie" to everyone they also said saddam had WMD and must go but they were wrong, not liars? just wondering.

All those Democrats knew is what your precious Dubya was telling them... so yeah, they were misled, and so long as they're now willing to stand up and admit they made a mistake, I can forgive them for it... after all, I let myself be misled too...

You keep thinking you're gonna play a game of "gotcha" with me, ice, and demonstrate that my positions are somehow inconsistent, but you can play that game from now until next year, and you still won't find any inconsistencies in my beliefs, or in my arguments...

I believe that Republican foreign policy has led us into a disastrous mistake, and I'm pissed at them for that... I believe that Republican economic policies are driving our economy in the toilet, making their rich backers richer at the expense of the rest of us... I believe their imperialistic agenda when it comes to foreign policy has greatly contributed to their FUBAR'ing of the economy, so in that sense the issues are inextricably intertwined...

And I believe that the Republicans have left us at greater risk from terrorism, rather than making us safer... IOW, ice, I believe that the failure of the GOP has been disastrous for our country... and any candidate still toeing the Republican party line does not deserve to hold office...

[silverbear]

Originally Posted by vta

Well if the goal was to simply invade a country with the intention of getting out as soon as possible, then I suppose this article would have merit.

But that's not the goal, so whether or not the U.S. is closer to it's goal than a year ago, is in no way indicated in what is written in this article.

OK, I'll bite-- what exactly do you think the goal IS?? What exactly have we gained by invading Iraq??

[silverbear]

Originally Posted by YoMick

In a way I cannot blame some for not recognizing or wanting to recognize progress. The leftist media wont allow it. We are what we are told in large part.

To say that there has been no progress in Iraq or Afghanistan is just uninformed. Our media could be a little more honest with us instead of just money/agenda driven.

Well, that's a nice little diatribe, but it ignores one little, rather important fact-- the source of this article is not the "leftist media", it's a think tank that advised the Iraq Study Group... IOW, it's an organization that has studied the progress of the war quite closely, an organization that Congress trusted enough to allow them to advise the Iraq Study Group...

So you can't blow off their conclusions with another tired ol' right wing attack on the "leftist media"... doing that is nothing but a blatant attempt to deflect attention off the issues raised by that think tank...

And FWIW, not once have I spoken in opposition to our mission in Afghanistan, so dragging that into this discussion is another feeble attempt at misdirection...

However, I expected no less when I started this thread... I KNEW you ardent supporters of the neandercon world view would do anything to nudge this thread off-topic...