Saints resign DE Tony Bryant to 1.5 mil 2 year - Page 3 - Dallas Cowboys Forum

jksmith269 · 03-20-2005

I think the biggest factor pushing the Saints to trade Howard is their center. He will be a FA at the end of the season and they really want to work a deal now for him and Duce but the problem is if they don't trade howard now then next offseason who will they Tag the Center who they want to keep a lot more or Howard...Either way they more than likely loose one straight out to FA. SO they would be better off trading Howard and getting something for him now than just loose him outright with nothing to show for him...... Then they can resign Duce and attempt to sign Lecharles the Center if not you have your tag available next season......

boysfanindc · 03-20-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelWinicki

Please... just say "no" to Spears. He'll never be a playmaker at the NFL level. He's got some physical tools but his instincts don't seem great. But come to think of it I'm not big on Merriman either. He's got great "combine" numbers but 8 sacks or whatever it was doesn't translate to big numbers at the NFL level.

Watched every game Merriman played a Maryland. He never dominated any games at the college level.

But yet we are going to take him at 11 because he has a great vertical.

Merriman at 11 would be a big mistake.

Eskimo · 03-20-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by jksmith269

I think the biggest factor pushing the Saints to trade Howard is their center. He will be a FA at the end of the season and they really want to work a deal now for him and Duce but the problem is if they don't trade howard now then next offseason who will they Tag the Center who they want to keep a lot more or Howard...Either way they more than likely loose one straight out to FA. SO they would be better off trading Howard and getting something for him now than just loose him outright with nothing to show for him...... Then they can resign Duce and attempt to sign Lecharles the Center if not you have your tag available next season......

Are centers considered separately when it comes to the franchise tag or are they lumped in with Guards and Tackles? I do know that DTs and DEs are considered separately and CBs and Ss are also considered separately but OLB and ILB are pooled together.

If all OL are considered the same, I don't see how anyone could afford to franchise their center given what LTs command.

ghettogandhi · 03-20-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hollywood Henderson

So am I St.Richard...

While DH would be a good fit and trade if we could send them the never make any BIG plays, the human speedbump Dat...

He would command a large salary...I would not be so against it, if he hadn't had injury concerns recently...

While Spears may never be all Pro, he is very versatile and has good wheels...

My first choice though would be Merriman who was very well coached on D at Maryland...

We need QB killers and he could be one...IF...Parcells takes over on D...If the clueless zimmy WUSS were still in charge Merriman (Or anyone else) would be wasted and dropped back into a soft passive zone...

Then 95% of the fans here would be calling him a BUST...

Take over Parcells, only then can DOOMSDAY return!

Hollywood your posts make it obvious that you have actually watched the players you are posting about-

spears will be a steady player for years to come- not very explosive

merriman will be a dominating 3-4 guy as a olb on 1 and 2 down and rushiing the qb on 3rd etc

erasmus james is the best 4-3 dlineman available

travis johnson is the second best dlineman available

top 4 defensive players

Derrick Johnson
Shawn Merriman
Erasmus James
Travis Johnson

Pac Man and Rolle will be very good but dline makes more of an impact on play to play-unless your name is Deion

**MichaelWinicki** · 03-20-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghettogandhi

Hollywood your posts make it obvious that you have actually watched the players you are posting about-

spears will be a steady player for years to come- not very explosive

merriman will be a dominating 3-4 guy as a olb on 1 and 2 down and rushiing the qb on 3rd etc

erasmus james is the best 4-3 dlineman available

travis johnson is the second best dlineman available

top 4 defensive players

Derrick Johnson
Shawn Merriman
Erasmus James
Travis Johnson

Pac Man and Rolle will be very good but dline makes more of an impact on play to play-unless your name is Deion

If Merriman wasn't dominating at the college level why do you think he'll be dominating at the pro level?

**big dog cowboy** · 03-20-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelWinicki

Oh come'on... just tell BDC that you were trying to goad him. He likes that.

I'm also a huge fan of a sharp stick in the eye as well!

DWAREZ · 03-20-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by St. Richard

The re-signing of Bryant solidifies the Saints' depth at defensive end and I believe it does make the trade of Howard easier for the Saints to manage. But I don't see how the Saints' asking price would be dropped because they re-signed a depth player. The Saints have the cap room to keep him if they desired or they could trade him if the right deal came along. But the right deal wouldn't be to take less than what they feel is fair for a pass-rushing, run-stopping, high character guy who really doesn't want to leave. If it weren't for the fact that they drafted Will Smith in 2004 as the best player available, the Saints wouldn't have the surplus they have at DE and they wouldn't consider trading him. Yes, clearing his cap figure would help them re-sign other players, but isn't putting the best team on the field the main objective? If I were the Saints GM, I'd find a way to keep him and make my defensive coordinator figure out how to get Grant, Howard and Smith on the field at the same [View Full Quote]

The point is they will have 10.4 million invested in three DEs alone for 2005, this does not include Bryants contract which will bump it up further dependent on rule 51.

The point is that having vested two first rounders recently, with DHs 7 million in addition to Bryant plus any other DE salary on the books...it is simply way too much vested by way of picks, $$$ and cap space that limits what the SAints can do in FA especially since they cannot negotiate with DH on a long term deal until July 15. This would eliminate them from adding any June 1 FAs as well and lock up a significant amout of cap $$$ that could be wiped out if traded.

The Bryant signing in and of itself does not mean they have to unload DH, but it does mean they have way too much money vested in the DE position in general (10-11 million) and in backup DEs in particular ( 7-8 million) which is more than both their starters combined...(2.6 million).

That my friend is prohibitive especially since thay can get something back for DH and wipe most if not all of his salary off the books!!

RoysAHitta · 03-20-2005

why do the saints draft so many darn DE's? lol..

dallasfaniac · 03-20-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoysAHitta

why do the saints draft so many darn DE's? lol..

The Saints draft BPA no matter what it seems. Like when they had Williams and still drafted McAllister.

BigSaint8050 · 03-20-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by St. Richard

I think they strongly considered it, but with a weak secondary and poor linebackers overall, I don't think they thought they had enough personnel to make that switch. I agree that Howard can play a 3-4 DE, but it wouldn't be his strong suit. After watching the 3-4 for years when the Saints had the old Dome Patrol, I've seen a lot of the defense. Smith could play OLB in that defense if he dropped a few pounds, but I just don't think it fits Howard. Howard played extremely well as a DT this year when they were in obvious passing downs. They rushed Grant, Bryant, Howard and Smith and it was like a jailbreak. Against Carolina, Delhomme looked like a deer in the headlights.

[View Full Quote]

Saints never tried to go to the 3-4, however they have a 3rd down rushing defense that is a hybrid 3-4 where Tony Bryant/Darren Howard slide down to the DT spot and Will Smith is brought in as a rushing backer.

The Saints do not have the personell to go to the 3-4 or the desire. Will Smith and Charles Grant are 4-3 DE's, as is Darren Howard. Their linebackers, Courtney Watson, James Allen, Colby Bockwoldt, Derrick Rodgers, Orlando Ruff, Cie Grant, Lavar Fisher, are 4-3 linebackers and one of the weaker spots on the team as far as talent and depth go. Like I said they do have a rushing defense that is a hybrid of the 3-4 but that is it, they never considered going away from their base 4-3 alignment.

The reason they wanted Dat is so they could stick him in the middle and slide Courtney Watson to the weak side where he is better suited to play.

I see something happening in the next couple of weeks, be it with Dallas, the Vikings, Philly, Washington, etc. I expect the Saints to get close to what they want from some team as there are several teams interested, two of which have had contract discussions with Howard and his agent (one being the Cowboys the other one is unknown).

BigSaint8050 · 03-20-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROYDESTROY

The point is they will have 10.4 million invested in three DEs alone for 2005, this does not include Bryants contract which will bump it up further dependent on rule 51.

The point is that having vested two first rounders recently, with DHs 7 million in addition to Bryant plus any other DE salary on the books...it is simply way too much vested by way of picks, $$$ and cap space that limits what the SAints can do in FA especially since they cannot negotiate with DH on a long term deal until July 15. This would eliminate them from adding any June 1 FAs as well and lock up a significant amout of cap $$$ that could be wiped out if traded.

The Bryant signing in and of itself does not mean they have to unload DH, but it does mean they have way too much money vested in the DE position in general (10-11 million) and in backup DEs in particular ( 7-8 million) which is more than both their starters combined...(2.6 million).

[View Full Quote]

According to the last time I heard the Saints were something like 5.5 million under the cap. They are trying to rework Joe Horn and Mike McKenzies contracts as we speak which will free up some cap space from this year (Horn carries something like a 4.3 million dollar cap charge). They also have several veterans that might be released post June 1st, Ashley Ambrose, Orlando Ruff and Fred Thomas, who will save some more cap space.

They also appear to be close to done in free agency and I don't expect any big time moves to be made, even post June 1st.

Hostile · 03-20-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigSaint8050

According to the last time I heard the Saints were something like 5.5 million under the cap. They are trying to rework Joe Horn and Mike McKenzies contracts as we speak which will free up some cap space from this year (Horn carries something like a 4.3 million dollar cap charge). They also have several veterans that might be released post June 1st, Ashley Ambrose, Orlando Ruff and Fred Thomas, who will save some more cap space.

They also appear to be close to done in free agency and I don't expect any big time moves to be made, even post June 1st.

With the money they'd save by trading Howard and their cap room they could lock up a lot of players long term.

Can you say Deuce McAllister?

DWAREZ · 03-20-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigSaint8050

According to the last time I heard the Saints were something like 5.5 million under the cap. They are trying to rework Joe Horn and Mike McKenzies contracts as we speak which will free up some cap space from this year (Horn carries something like a 4.3 million dollar cap charge). They also have several veterans that might be released post June 1st, Ashley Ambrose, Orlando Ruff and Fred Thomas, who will save some more cap space.

They also appear to be close to done in free agency and I don't expect any big time moves to be made, even post June 1st.

I believe the 5.5 was before the Fisher and Bryant signings but I am unsure how this changes their FA plans. But I do know 10.4-11 million is way too much for the DE position with 7-8 million being for BacKUP DEs and only 2.6 for the starters.

It is very doubtful they do not move DH because the cap implications and the value they can get for a player they no longer need. Way too much $$$ and draft picks absorbing much too much of the allotted cap space.

NO could have much flexibility by trading DH in FA as well as locking up their own players to longer and/or more cap friendly deals. I do not believe for one minute that having a backup DE at 7.6 million or so is a smart or desirable move.

That is simply poor management of personell, draft picks and $$$ if they do choose to keep him at this cost or at all.

St. Richard · 03-20-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigSaint8050

The Saints do not have the personell to go to the 3-4 or the desire....Like I said they do have a rushing defense that is a hybrid of the 3-4 but that is it, they never considered going away from their base 4-3 alignment.

I don't disagree with anything you posted except this part of your post. They have not considered going away from the 4-3 as a base defense, but the Saints HAVE had the desire to incorporate the 3-4 into their defensive package and haven't had the personnel. I also suspect, but have no proof, that Haslett would prefer to use the 3-4 as their base defense. Just so my new cowboyszone.com friends would know I didn't just pull this stuff out of my, uh, ears

, I found this from the Times Picayune dated August 25, 2004:

Haslett has been considering going to a 3-4 the past several seasons but now has the personnel to implement it, Pease said.

"Will's as fast as any of the linebackers we've got and as smart," Pease said. "We're going to limit what we do, but having him run around in space seems to be what he does pretty good.

"Jim can't wait. The 3-4 comes from his old Pittsburgh Steelers background. The thing about that front is it changes how offenses protect in pass block and how they block on run plays. Whatever level we take it to, it means opponents are going to have work on it every week."

The article goes on to say that the 3-4 would not be their base defense, but a third down option, which worked very well for them.

St. Richard · 03-20-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROYDESTROY

I believe the 5.5 was before the Fisher and Bryant signings but I am unsure how this changes their FA plans. But I do know 10.4-11 million is way too much for the DE position with 7-8 million being for BacKUP DEs and only 2.6 for the starters.

It is very doubtful they do not move DH because the cap implications and the value they can get for a player they no longer need. Way too much $$$ and draft picks absorbing much too much of the allotted cap space.

NO could have much flexibility by trading DH in FA as well as locking up their own players to longer and/or more cap friendly deals. I do not believe for one minute that having a backup DE at 7.6 million or so is a smart or desirable move.

That is simply poor management of personell, draft picks and $$$ if they do choose to keep him at this cost or at all.

Approx $5.5 million cap room for the Saints before the signings and approx $4.25 after if the figures I have are correct. Again, it doesn't matter much in Howard's case -- if they needed more room, as BigSaint said, there are several contracts that are going to be redone and players cut to create plenty of room.

We all agree that the Saints have a surplus at DE and have a lot of money tied up in the position. The problem is that people want to make that fact out to be time critical in that the Saints HAVE to make a move NOW without getting what they determine to be fair value for the player. They don't HAVE to trade him at all -- there is the possibility that they keep him and sign him to a long term deal. If they do that, his cap value will be much less than $7.8 million and the Saints will be able to re-sign any of the players they are trying to sign to extensions. Even if Howard played for the franchise tender amount, it wouldn't necessarily be disastrous for the Saints.

One other thing I'd like to address -- Howard would not be the backup if he starts the 2005 season with the Saints. He would be the starter and Smith would rotate in with Grant and Howard to give them a breather. Sounds like a plan to me.

Ultimately, I agree that Howard will be traded, as early as this week, to some team willing to pay the Saints' price and Howard's price. For selfish reasons, I've wanted that team to be the Cowboys. I just can't stand to think of him playing for Philadelphia, Minnesota or Washington.