Kiper's new mock 2.0

[JoeCorrado]

Originally Posted by cobra

I don't see any 3-4 pass rushers going before we pick in that mock. Who are you referring to?

Brockers for one. He can play anywhere on the line, DE or NT. That allows us to be creative with he and Rat. And that equals added pressure... more importantly- it represents a push from the interior three.

Pressure is certainly not limited to just the OLB spots. Interior pressure would help the outside rushers though.

[Idgit]

Originally Posted by cobra

I don't see any 3-4 pass rushers going before we pick in that mock. Who are you referring to?

We're going to go 'round this circle again? I was referring to Ingram and Upshaw from the OPs comments.

[cobra]

Originally Posted by Idgit

I was referring to Ingram and Upshaw from the OPs comments.

Those guys are not 3-4 pass rushers. Those guys are 3-4 OLBs. OLB is not the same as pass rusher. Between the two, Upshaw is more of a pass rusher.

JoeCorrado has it correct. The only player in this mock who would improve the Cowboys pass rush that is taken ahead of the Cowboys is Brockers.

[cobra]

Originally Posted by Idgit

We're going to go 'round this circle again?

Oh, and as to this point, as long as people suggest Ingram (or Upshaw) somehow elite 3-4 OLB pass rushers and continue to (1) fall victim to sloppy thinking, (2) propagate the myth, or (3) just not know any better, I'll continue to point out that they are flatly wrong.

I know what you guys want. You want Ware on both sides of the line, or something like a Ware-Harrison/Matthews/Suggs/15+sackplayer combination. But neither of these guys will give you that. They just happen to be the best 3-4 OLB prospects but there are a lot of 3-4 OLB players who are not 10+ sack players.

So until everyone gets that through their skulls and I quit seeing that sloppy thinking, I'll continue to make this point.

Bold prediction: Ingram never gets more than 10 sacks 8 sacks in a season in his career. .... Seeing as he didn't do that well in college, that's actually not that "bold" of a prediction.

[Zimmy Lives]

Originally Posted by Chocolate Lab

Jerry hasn't taken a druggie in years. He's been very clear on this subject.

Good. I expect him to keep his word. The Cowboys don't need anymore boneheads.

[Primetime42]

Originally Posted by RoyTheHammer

Would you say there's a large gap between Claiborne and Hosely/Minni?

Of the three LSU corners (PP7, Claiborne, Honey Badger), to me, he's far and away the best one.

[Idgit]

Originally Posted by cobra

Oh, and as to this point, as long as people suggest Ingram (or Upshaw) somehow elite 3-4 OLB pass rushers and continue to (1) fall victim to sloppy thinking, (2) propagate the myth, or (3) just not know any better, I'll continue to point out that they are flatly wrong.

I know what you guys want. You want Ware on both sides of the line, or something like a Ware-Harrison/Matthews/Suggs/15+sackplayer combination. But neither of these guys will give you that. They just happen to be the best 3-4 OLB prospects but there are a lot of 3-4 OLB players who are not 10+ sack players.

So until everyone gets that through their skulls and I quit seeing that sloppy thinking, I'll continue to make this point.

Bold prediction: Ingram never gets more than 10 sacks 8 sacks in a season in his career. .... Seeing as he didn't do that well in college, that's actually not that "bold" of a prediction.

Cool. You keep pointing it out then. The rest of the world will just ignore you. Because Ingram and Upshaw are both pash rushing DE/OLB options for a 3-4 and, as I said, they're both projected to be gone before we pick at 14. If you want to think noting that denotes sloppy thinking, be my guest.

And, fwiw, you're completely off base re: what I want vis-a-vis Ware. I'm not sure why, because I've explained it pretty clearly in other threads. What I want, is a replacement for Spencer that doesn't destabilize what we've got on defense. And a player with pass rush upside is a huge plus if we can develop him over time. I prioritize that over going OG early when there are other capable OG prospects available in round 2 and below.

[cobra]

Originally Posted by Idgit

Because Ingram and Upshaw are both pash rushing DE/OLB options for a 3-4

False. They are both OLB options for a 3-4. Calling them "pass rushing" options is misleading.

Sure, they can rush the passer in the same way Scandrick rushes the passer. But you don't call Scandrick a pass rusher.

3-4 OLB skill set is not the same as a pass rushing skill set. You either fail to understand that or refuse to acknowledge it.

If you are drafting either of those players for the pass-rushing skill set, then neither of those players are worth a top 15 pick because neither have elite much less plus pass rushing skills.

If you want to draft them for their 3-4 OLB skill set, then you won't hear anything from me. I'll disagree that it is worth drafting a player at 14 that won't improve what we have when we have other holes on this team, but I won't dispute your preference.

But if you want to draft them for their pass-rushing skill set at 14, then that is just stupid because neither of them have top 15 pass rushing skill sets. There are better pass rushers later in the draft (e.g., Irvin).

[Primetime42]

Originally Posted by JonJon

Many had Mike Jenkins as a top 2-3 CB in the draft, just like where Janoris is now. Most mocks also had Mike Jenkins going between picks 10-25. Skill wise, I think Janoris is a better overall cover corner than Jenkins, though Jenkins has the speed and size advantage.There's no doubt that Janoris is a top 10 talent, so if we get him 14, I would come away feeling thrilled.

Agree about the talent. But the off-field stuff scares the crap out of me. This isn't a Dez Bryant situation, where there's no smoking gun, there's actually a pattern of bad behavior, namely substance abuse. I'd be willing to bet he'll violate the NFL substance abuse policy at least once in his career.

I'm sure the team will be doing its homework, but they'd better be damn sure if they make that choice.

[Idgit]

Originally Posted by cobra

False. They are both OLB options for a 3-4. Calling them "pass rushing" options is misleading.

Sure, they can rush the passer in the same way Scandrick rushes the passer. But you don't call Scandrick a pass rusher.

3-4 OLB skill set is not the same as a pass rushing skill set. You either fail to understand that or refuse to acknowledge it.

If you are drafting either of those players for the pass-rushing skill set, then neither of those players are worth a top 15 pick because neither have elite much less plus pass rushing skills.

If you want to draft them for their 3-4 OLB skill set, then you won't hear anything from me. I'll disagree that it is worth drafting a player at 14 that won't improve what we have when we have other holes on this team, but I won't dispute your preference.

[View Full Quote]But if you want to draft them for their pass-rushing skill set at 14, then that is just stupid because neither of them have top 15 pass rushing skill sets. There are better pass rushers later in the draft (e.g., Irvin).

If you want to pretend that we're not going to give the SOLB pass rush responsibility, or that the SOLB rush responsibility is the same as the slot CBs, that's fine with me. But I have no interest in quibbling with you about the role of the 3-4 OLB if this is your take. I've said clearly in both threads what I'm looking for at 14 and why I would take Ingram if he were there.

However you want to look at it, and whatever rationale you want to use for justifying selecting a SOLB, Upshaw and Ingram are the two highest-rated DE/OLB prospects in the draft. They are the two most-likely replacements for Spencer at what would be a huge position of need for us if we let him walk. And they're both gone by 14 in yet another mock draft.

[Primetime42]

Originally Posted by cobra

False. They are both OLB options for a 3-4. Calling them "pass rushing" options is misleading.

Sure, they can rush the passer in the same way Scandrick rushes the passer. But you don't call Scandrick a pass rusher.

3-4 OLB skill set is not the same as a pass rushing skill set. You either fail to understand that or refuse to acknowledge it.

If you are drafting either of those players for the pass-rushing skill set, then neither of those players are worth a top 15 pick because neither have elite much less plus pass rushing skills.

If you want to draft them for their 3-4 OLB skill set, then you won't hear anything from me. I'll disagree that it is worth drafting a player at 14 that won't improve what we have when we have other holes on this team, but I won't dispute your preference.

[View Full Quote]But if you want to draft them for their pass-rushing skill set at 14, then that is just stupid because neither of them have top 15 pass rushing skill sets. There are better pass rushers later in the draft (e.g., Irvin).

Meh.

I'd just as soon take Mercilus.

[Hoofbite]

Originally Posted by Risen Star

Disagree. No trade ups for anybody. We need a full draft class.

Cordy Glenn isn't a bad consolation prize. I may actually prefer him.

So trade down in the 2nd and regain what was lost if you must.

I'd rather have an elite.