Are combine numbers over rated?

[robert70x7]

Originally Posted by CCBoy

In fact, that indicates a high level of oxygen exchange and removal of lactic acid. Not marshmellow activity at all.

Lactic acid can not be removed within a minute of the exercise. Levels actually increase once the exercise is completed. They can not develop lactic acid and then remove it within that same minute.

[dallasfaniac]

Ok, so which players were raised too high or lowered too low based upon their combine numbers? And don't give me that junk the media always spouts about Mike Mamula. He had 29 sacks over his junior and senior years, the Eagles just took a player projected as an OLB rush linebacker in the 3-4 (his position in college) and played him with his hand on the ground as an undersized DE.

[CCBoy]

Originally Posted by robert70x7

Lactic acid can not be removed within a minute of the exercise. Levels actually increase once the exercise is completed. They can not develop lactic acid and then remove it within that same minute.

You don't have a grasp of function here. It is with extreme conditioning that oxygen exchange improves. The LACK of oxygen at the muscle is what causes the build up of extreme amounts of lactic acid. You just disproved your own reasoning that high repetitions had no purpose what so ever. It indicates extreme conditioning as well as drive to sustain at those levels.

[Hoofbite]

I dunno.

All things being equal, I'd rather have a guy who's fast and can bench the hell out of anything put on the bar than someone who is slow and can't lift a case of Ramen's.

From a fan's perspectively they're probably incredibly overrated.

From a team's perspective, I could see them being useful.

Two guys who performed similarly at the college leve, who do you pick? I'll go with faster and stronger unless there is some other metric that prevents me from doing so.

[robert70x7]

Originally Posted by CCBoy

You don't have a grasp of function here. It is with extreme conditioning that oxygen exchange improves. The LACK of oxygen at the muscle is what causes the build up of extreme amounts of lactic acid. You just disproved your own reasoning that high repetitions had no purpose what so ever. It indicates extreme conditioning as well as drive to sustain at those levels.

It measures extreme conditioning and drive (commitment in the weight room, dedication, etc.) But asking football players to bench press 225 pounds is a measure of muscular endurance, not power or strength. That was my whole point. I understand the krebs cycle and how it works, but my whole point is that people confuse the test with what it actually measures. Just because Stephen Paea bench pressed 225 49 times does not mean he is stronger than Nick Fairley. It is a measure of muscular endurance. I know guys who can't bench press 225 more than 20 times, but have a max of over 450 pounds.

If NFL teams want to take this as a measurment of a player's dedication and motor, that's fine. But don't give me that garbage that this is a measure of a player's strength and power, because it's not. Not saying this is towards you, just in general.

[fortdick]

Originally Posted by CCBoy

You would have to have seen the other thread. This was a response to bears only **** in the woods. I thought the Packer reference was funny. Sorry if you don't agree.

[Sam I Am]

Originally Posted by robert70x7

Being able to bench press 225 pounds 49 times does not translate to the football field. There are different energy systems in use when an offensive lineman makes his initial punch, and the bout lasts anywhere from 3-6 seconds. To generate power, they are relying on creatine stored in their muscles (which is not used in bench pressing for an extended period of time). Football players will NEVER give a consistent bout of energy in a single play that is required to bench press 225 pounds over 30 times. It isn't relative.

It could point out how serious a prospect was in preparation for the combine, but other than that it's worthless.

Larry Allen would like a word with you...

[TheCount]

Originally Posted by robert70x7

Give me a guy who isn't as strong, but produced just as much in college versus a guy that is a beast in the weight room and produced just the same.

Larry Allen didn't bench 705 in college.

Not sure I understand what you're saying.

You'd pick a guy that doesn't work out over a guy that does if both had the same production? Why? Not that either is right or wrong, but I don't see why you'd be so eager to take a guy that has no desire to increase his natural talent.

What makes you think a guy that avoided the gym the previous 20+ years of his life will suddenly become a gym rat once he gets paid millions of dollars?

[robert70x7]

Originally Posted by TheCount

Not sure I understand what you're saying.

You'd pick a guy that doesn't work out over a guy that does if both had the same production? Why? Not that either is right or wrong, but I don't see why you'd be so eager to take a guy that has no desire to increase his natural talent.

What makes you think a guy that avoided the gym the previous 20+ years of his life will suddenly become a gym rat once he gets paid millions of dollars?

If a football player is competing at a high level of college football and was invited to the combine, it was likely he didn't "avoid" the weight room for the previous 20 years. You can develop work ethic, strength and power once your in the pros. Larry Allen took weight lifting a lot more seriously once he became a player for Cowboys (I've heard him say it in multiple interviews). My whole point is if someone produced just as well as someone who scores better in a MUSCULAR ENDURANCE test, why should that be a knock on him? It is not a football specific drill.

You're blowing what I said out of proportion. Everyone that plays football at the collegiate level works out. Just because someone has "extreme conditioning" does not make him a better football player.

Go into a NFL weight room, or college weight room for that matter. Find me ONE PROGRAM that revolves around lifting 50-60% of their 1 rep max 25-40 times. You can't, because it isn't specific to what is required on the football field, ergo it is pointless to say that this exercise is some sort of predictor for their ability to play football. I simply do not buy it.

[TheCount]

Originally Posted by robert70x7

If a football player is competing at a high level of college football and was invited to the combine, it was likely he didn't "avoid" the weight room for the previous 20 years. You can develop work ethic, strength and power once your in the pros.

I'd wager that while it's possible, most prospects don't suddenly discover what a joy it is to lift weights and work out till you can barely walk once they get a sudden influx of cash. Especially linemen.

Originally Posted by robert70x7

Larry Allen took weight lifting a lot more seriously once he became a player for Cowboys (I've heard him say it in multiple interviews). My whole point is if someone produced just as well as someone who scores better in a MUSCULAR ENDURANCE test, why should that be a knock on him? It is not a football specific drill.

You're blowing what I said out of proportion. Everyone that plays football at the collegiate level works out. Just because someone has "extreme conditioning" does not make him a better football player.

Go into a NFL weight room, or college weight room for that matter. Find me ONE PROGRAM that revolves around lifting 50-60% of their 1 rep max 25-40 times. You can't, because it isn't specific to what is required on the football field, ergo it is pointless to say that this exercise is some sort of predictor for their ability to play football. I simply do not buy it.

No one said anything about conditioning making you a "better football player". I was simply explaining why it is that some people care about the bench press, and it doesn't just come down to the reps.

Whether you value it or not, it's a legitimate way for evaluators to gauge which guys have been spending time in the weight room.

LaMichael James said himself that before he started prepping for the draft he couldn't bench press and now he can. It's not just about the rep number, it shows a willingness to put the time in when no one is watching, among other things.

You are attempting to say it's insignificant and it's not, it means something. How much it means is clearly debatable, but at the end of the day it teaches you something about a guy you may have only seen on tape and spoken to for all of 20 minutes.

I'd love to go into an NFL weight room and ask some questions, maybe you can help me out with that.

[robert70x7]

Originally Posted by TheCount

I'd wager that while it's possible, most prospects don't suddenly discover what a joy it is to lift weights and work out till you can barely walk once they get a sudden influx of cash. Especially linemen.




No one said anything about conditioning making you a "better football player". I was simply explaining why it is that some people care about the bench press, and it doesn't just come down to the reps.

Whether you value it or not, it's a legitimate way for evaluators to gauge which guys have been spending time in the weight room.

LaMichael James said himself that before he started prepping for the draft he couldn't bench press and now he can. It's not just about the rep number, it shows a willingness to put the time in when no one is watching, among other things.

[View Full Quote]You are attempting to say it's insignificant and it's not, it means something. How much it means is clearly debatable, but at the end of the day it teaches you something about a guy you may have only seen on tape and spoken to for all of 20 minutes.

I'd love to go into an NFL weight room and ask some questions, maybe you can help me out with that.

I agree with everything you have said, but we are arguing two different things. It does show the willingness to prepare and lift weights, but that measures something completely different than what is actually shown on the football field. I'll concede that it does have value in finding out which players are dedicated, but they don't spend their entire career seeing how many times they bench 225 pounds. It is a one time, one test thing that they will never EVER have to do again during their time in the NFL.

My argument is that the 225 LB bench press in itself is NOT a football specific exercise for NFL caliber football players. One way they could improve it would be to have standards for each position and a weight that would require a 5-8 reps to exhaustion would be much more indicative of a player's overall strength and power.

From a relative football strength perpsective, the test is useless. If you want to see who has put in the most work and dedication, then fine. Use it for that, but I hate seeing players who vault up the draft board because of workouts they have been preparing for that they will never do once the combine is over.

[TheCount]

Originally Posted by robert70x7

It is a one time, one test thing that they will never EVER have to do again during their time in the NFL.

You pretty much just defined the entire combine.

As far as players vaulting up boards for the bench, I don't really think that happens. As fans, we see a lot of news about a guy putting up those numbers but the evaluators see that and think, "Maybe I should go watch more tape on that guy, I didn't see all that strength on the field initially."

[dallasfaniac]

Originally Posted by robert70x7

I hate seeing players who vault up the draft board because of workouts they have been preparing for

Who are these players? Darrius Heyward Bey (He did outperform both Crabtree and Maclin this year, his first with a real QB) and who else?

[Hoofbite]

Originally Posted by TheCount

You pretty much just defined the entire combine.

As far as players vaulting up boards for the bench, I don't really think that happens. As fans, we see a lot of news about a guy putting up those numbers but the evaluators see that and think, "Maybe I should go watch more tape on that guy, I didn't see all that strength on the field initially."

Yeah, not really sure how you can single out any specific test because it isn't performed in the NFL.

How many guys run 40 yards in only spandex on Sundays?

By this definition, the Wonderlic is probably the most valuable assessment as it actually requires thinking, something that we can at least expect to be done on Sundays.

[DFWJC]

Originally Posted by dallasfaniac

Ok, so which players were raised too high or lowered too low based upon their combine numbers? And don't give me that junk the media always spouts about Mike Mamula. He had 29 sacks over his junior and senior years, the Eagles just took a player projected as an OLB rush linebacker in the 3-4 (his position in college) and played him with his hand on the ground as an undersized DE.

Just look at some of the Raiders' picks and you'll have your answer.

And yes, DHB would be one of them regardless of how other players have played. He vaulted up to the top 10 due to his timed speed. I think he'll end up being okay though.