Question about Barry Church and Bill Nagy

[MichaelWinicki]

Originally Posted by TheCount

That's fine, but it doesn't change the fact that you instinctively picked the most dominant TE you could think of as an example for "speed gap" only to find out he's slower than the SS you've been dogging all thread.

You tossed out Roy Williams because he's the big bad bogey man around here when it comes to SS, but he ran a 4.53 and STILL couldn't cover. Further proving that your 40 time stipulation is utterly arbitrary.

Would I have higher hopes for Church if he ran a 4.5? Of course. Do I think he automatically is no good because he doesn't? No.

Maybe Church can't win the job because of his 40 time, I'll let him lose the job fighting on the field rather than rule him out because of a number on a piece of paper like you seem to be. Luckily the team seems to be taking that approach as well.

[View Full Quote]For the record, there aren't many SS's in the league that could cover a slot WR/RB one on one. If your defensive coordinator has any brains, he's not going to allow that to happen very often.

Of course Church shouldn't be totally dismissed by his lack of a top-gear, but at the same time the lack of a top-gear may keep him from being a starter.

I'm comfortable letting Rob Ryan and others determine who the starter is.

[bsbellomy]

Originally Posted by TheCount

Nagy was downright awful last year. Worse than Costa, if that's even possible. Maybe he's improved but his injury was a blessing in disguise for the team as the blocking improved greatly once he went out.

Not sure how you were able to determine this from a couple halves of football in preseason.

[TheCount]

Originally Posted by bsbellomy

Not sure how you were able to determine this from a couple halves of football in preseason.

You know he started 4 games during the regular season, right?

[xwalker]

I added the measureables for the other Safeties on the roster:

[xwalker]

[quote=MichaelWinicki;4595663]That's a pretty good point xwalker. Yeah he probably could gain a little speed by losing some more poundage.

But still look at that chart, all those guys would still be faster except for Ed Reed, who may aruguably have the best ball recognition skills ever for a safety. You've got what... 6 safeties on there who are 4.40 guys or faster?

I'd rather see the Cowboys get a slightly smaller safety who can turn and run with most wide receivers and backs.[/quote]

I agree. I would prefer a top athlete at the position. It would be great if something clicked for AOA and he became a legit challenger for the 2nd Safety position in 2012.

[xwalker]

Church, Barry
Terrible forty but decent 10-yard and excellent agility measurements. His listed weight of 220 is probably good for the LB type of role that he has been playing in the nickel defense; however, to challenge for a starting Safety spot, he probably needs to lose at least 5 lbs to improve his speed.
Owusu-Ansah, Akwasi
Excellent athlete. Played all but 1 snap in 3 games for Jacksonville.
Whitley, Eddie
Fast, but by far the smallest Safety on the roster. He had the 2nd worst agility measureables.
Silva, Mana
He had good speed in pre-draft measurements; however, DC.com shows him to have gained 14 lbs since the draft.
Sensabaugh, Gerald
He had terriffic pre-draft measureables. Hopefully, having better CBs and faster ILBs will improve his game.
McCray, Danny
He had decent pre-draft measureables; however, he was a backup in college and does not appear to ever be a threat to start in the NFL.
Johnson, Matt
Good measureables, but instincts appear to be his #1 asset.
Pool, Brodney
His agility measureables were not very good in pre-draft testing 9 years ago. He only got a 1.2 mil contract, which indicates that other teams were not interested. One more concussion and he’s probably done in the NFL.
Taplin-Ross, Justin
His measureables were OK at 223 lbs. The DC.com sites shows his weight down from 223 pre-draft to 214. This could make a significant difference in his speed/agility.

[xwalker]

Originally Posted by AsthmaField

When you look at Ed Reed and Nick Collins, both who are nearly the same size, and realize that Collins is over a full two tenths of a second faster in his 40 yard dash... it become pretty clear that a whole lot more than flat out speed is important when playing safety in the NFL.

The 40 yard times can be off from player to player as well. If you look at the preparation that say, Earl Thomas went through and that Barry Church went through, I'd bet there was a night and day difference.

Thomas being a high profile prospect from a high profile school had the ability to go to camps to prepare him to run the 40, and to give him the best nutrition to be in the best possible shape for the combine and pro day.

Church on the other hand, probably only had the Toledo staff to help him with those things, if he got any help at all.

[View Full Quote]The point being that he would have more room to improve his 40 time than Thomas would, who probably maxed out his speed.

Or more precisely, Thomas wouldn't appear as fast on the field as he did on his pro day, while Church would appear faster on the field than his 40 time would indicate.

That appears to be exactly what we've seen too. Earl Thomas, who ran a faster 40 than Demarco Murray did, has been flat out run on the field by Mr. Murray more than one time. In College and in last year's Dallas/Seattle game.

Church on the other hand, has been noted by Cowboy coaches as being better in coverage than they expected. Not exactly saying faster than his 40 time indicated, but their low expectations probably were a direct result of his mediocre time.

Am I saying Church will be as fast as Thomas? Of course not, but he could be a better player. I'm saying that to put so much faith in one single measurement is folly. That measurement can be so far off in so many ways that IMO, it is just a guideline for looking at prospects.

We Cowboy fans are so scarred by the (S) Roy Williams failure that the last thing we want is a guy who can't run really fast back in the secondary. However, there is no proof that it was any lack of speed that caused Roy's failure. As we know, there are plenty of fast safeties that can't cover, so being fast isn't a cure all for safeties in coverage. Besides speed in the 40, there could be any number of reasons that Williams had trouble in coverage.

Anyway, I've gone on long enough about this. I do think Church has a chance to be a good safety in coverage, although it certainly isn't a sure thing at this point. He truly plays faster than his 40 would indicate, which is probably because his 40 time wasn't as accurate as we would have liked it to be.

Good analysis; however, Church did have that interception where he was chased down and tackled by a QB. I think it was a 2010 preseason game, but I can't remember the exact game. I don't know if that was a speed issue or a conditioning issue.

[AsthmaField]

Originally Posted by xwalker

Good analysis; however, Church did have that interception where he was chased down and tackled by a QB. I think it was a 2010 preseason game, but I can't remember the exact game. I don't know if that was a speed issue or a conditioning issue.

Yeah, that was Phillip Rivers... not exactly a speed merchant.

I do think it was a fumble recovery, IIRC, and Church kind of stumbled trying to get the ball and get going. Maybe had he got the ball cleanly from the start he would have had a running start and never gotten caught by Rivers.

Like you mentioned, that could've been him not yet in playing condition, but I don't know.

Still, I'm willing to let him compete for the spot this year and if he can't do it, let it be proven on the field in preseason.

[TheCount]

Originally Posted by xwalker

Good analysis; however, Church did have that interception where he was chased down and tackled by a QB. I think it was a 2010 preseason game, but I can't remember the exact game. I don't know if that was a speed issue or a conditioning issue.

Wasn't an interception. Wasn't chased down. Obviously ran out of gas though.

Also since it was the preseason, no one was going to blow Rivers up after the pick our of sheer courtesy. The last thing I'd want to see is Romo getting blown up by a Charger during the preseason. In a real game, Rivers probably gets leveled and never makes the play, he obviously took off running the second he saw the fumble so he was way ahead of Church to start with.

I'm actually starting to enjoy this. Who's next?

[xwalker]

Originally Posted by TheCount

Wasn't an interception. Wasn't chased down. Obviously ran out of gas though.

Also since it was the preseason, no one was going to blow Rivers up after the pick our of sheer courtesy. The last thing I'd want to see is Romo getting blown up by a Charger during the preseason. In a real game, Rivers probably gets leveled and never makes the play, he obviously took off running the second he saw the fumble so he was way ahead of Church to start with.

[View Full Quote]I'm actually starting to enjoy this. Who's next?

I'm not sure what to make of the video.

He had some good initial moves but then starts to get passed by Spencer.

At the end he appeared to somewhat give up. Probably just out of gas.

[AbeBeta]

Originally Posted by TheCount

Nagy was downright awful last year. Worse than Costa, if that's even possible. Maybe he's improved but his injury was a blessing in disguise for the team as the blocking improved greatly once he went out.

You mean he played like rookie OL very often do?

Even many first rounders come in and play poorly most of their first season