Wade's Fault

[Chocolate Lab]

2010 wants its thread back. This one is right up there with classics like

"We can't run the ball on the goal line because Wade doesn't hit in practice."

"We commit penalties because Wade is too lax."

"Guys don't know where to line up because Wade is soft."

"We don't show up against the Eagles because Wade does... Well, something."

Wait, all those things continued to happen a year and a half after he was gone?

[Doomsday101]

Originally Posted by xwalker

How many of the recent problems were due to Wade Phillips' lack of discipline?

Can you envision how these players would have been different if they were playing for the 1992 version of Jimmy Johnson or even for Parcells?

MartyB - What if Jimmy saw him rolling his eyes and laughing behind his position coaches back like he did on Hard Knocks?

Mike Jenkins - Would he have developed an attitude?

Gurode, Bigg and Montrae Holland - Would they have gotten fat and lazy playing on Jimmy's team?

Newman - Would he have gotten soft and never learned to use proper technique?

Marion Barber - Would he have challenged Jimmy's dress code?

Mike Vanderjagt - Oh wait, he didn't play for Wade.

Ryan Leaf - Whoops, he didn't play for Wade either.

Matt Jones - Double Whoops, he didn't even play for the Cowboys.

I don't see that Wade was a problem. Players may have quite on him he did not quite on the players. Under Wade we did win the NFC East twice, these players are suppose to be professionals and did not act as such when they threw in the towel. As the old saying goes you can't cut 53 but you can cut 1 as in the HC. Wade treated them like professional they choose not to work and produce as professionals

[Cowboy_Shawn]

Originally Posted by Clove

Wade doesn't have much problem when he's coordinating a group of men on the defense. It's hard to make an impact when you're (in so many words) told to leave things alone until the Genius is ready to take your job.

I felt the same way. And on the outside looking in, it felt as if the Cowboys didn't have a head coach. They only had two coordinators running the show.

[Cowboy_Shawn]

Originally Posted by Chocolate Lab

2010 wants its thread back. This one is right up there with classics like

"We can't run the ball on the goal line because Wade doesn't hit in practice."

"We commit penalties because Wade is too lax."

"Guys don't know where to line up because Wade is soft."

"We don't show up against the Eagles because Wade does... Well, something."

Wait, all those things continued to happen a year and a half after he was gone?

Yet people are still pointing the finger at Wade for our current shortcomings.

[CoCo]

As usual, the discussion denigrates when people move things to an extreme.

Wade is a very highly respected DC. But 3 times now (Denver, Buffalo, & Dallas) teams that once believed in his ability to be a head man changed their opinions after a few years.

Whether Garrett proves to be superior as a HC will only be determined over time. And in the same way that some have eagerly declared it so from Day 1 there are also those who will probably find a way to excuse any Garrett success as not of his own doing no matter what.

[TwoDeep3]

Originally Posted by CoCo

As usual, the discussion denigrates when people move things to an extreme.

Wade is a very highly respected DC. But 3 times now (Denver, Buffalo, & Dallas) teams that once believed in his ability to be a head man changed their opinions after a few years.

Whether Garrett proves to be superior as a HC will only be determined over time. And in the same way that some have eagerly declared it so from Day 1 there are also those who will probably find a way to excuse any Garrett success as not of his own doing no matter what.

Just show me Don't tell me what you think. Not you per se Coco. But the collective that preaches the virtues of Garrett.

I have heard in the past how Newman still has it.

Brady James is still a player because he recorded the most tackles.

Romo never fails it's the defense/team.

It's Romo, the offensive line looks good because of him.

Spencer is a great run stopper and this will be his year.

Jenkins is a top corner.

Dez is one of the best in the league.

Miles is one of the best in the league.

Garrett is all about discipline and bringing back accountability.

All teams allow the players to by pass the head coach and go directly to the owner for issues they have.

These all may be true, or not.

But show me wins. Show me play-off wins. Show me a team that is hungry and enforces their will on the other team in December.

Don't tell me how great they are then ignore when they fail, then tee up the greatness song again.

Don't tell me we're building for the future after we have been doing so for six years straight.

Show me. It's been 14 years of telling me.

I want to believe. But not your opinion. Your opinion has been wrong.

Show me.

[anj113]

Originally Posted by phildadon86

all i know is we cant still blame wade for what our team has been, he isnt the reason that Garrett decided to ice our own kicker and lose us a playoff spot, he isnt the one that decided to instead of letting Brandon jacobs score to keep calling timeouts, or to throw on a first and 10 when we were up by 24 against the lions, these were all JG. Dont get me wrong i hate wade but the guy went to houston and had one of the best defenses in the league. JUS SAYING

Garret did not 'ICE' his own kicker.. That was NOT the reason he called the timeout.. Everybody keeps saying that... Sure the timeout was ill advised, but he didnt call it to ice his kicker.. Its insane that people keep saying that.

[phildadon86]

Originally Posted by anj113

Garret did not 'ICE' his own kicker.. That was NOT the reason he called the timeout.. Everybody keeps saying that... Sure the timeout was ill advised, but he didnt call it to ice his kicker.. Its insane that people keep saying that.

So what was the reason then?

[Doomsday101]

Originally Posted by anj113

Garret did not 'ICE' his own kicker.. That was NOT the reason he called the timeout.. Everybody keeps saying that... Sure the timeout was ill advised, but he didnt call it to ice his kicker.. Its insane that people keep saying that.

I agree. As Jason Taylor said on NFL network, the kicker was in distance to make the kick and made it as the TO was called. Reason Garrett called the TO is special team coach was coming down the line to Garrett to call the TO. In the end it is Garrett who called the TO but icing had nothing to do with anything. Some like to call it that as if so called icing even matters in the league.

[CoCo]

"Garrett iced his own kicker" is an automatic dismissal of that poster for me. If someone has to be walked through what happened there, and its impact, what hope do they have of ever adding anything of value to a conversation?

Does that sound harsh?

[Doomsday101]

Originally Posted by phildadon86

So what was the reason then?

Because Joe DeCamillis was hollering and jestering for Garrett to call the TO. He sure as hell did not do it to so call ice the kicker

[CoCo]

Originally Posted by TwoDeep3

Just show me Don't tell me what you think. Not you per se Coco. But the collective that preaches the virtues of Garrett.

But show me wins. Show me play-off wins. Show me a team that is hungry and enforces their will on the other team in December.

Don't tell me how great they are then ignore when they fail, then tee up the greatness song again.

Don't tell me we're building for the future after we have been doing so for six years straight.

Show me. It's been 14 years of telling me.

I want to believe. But not your opinion. Your opinion has been wrong.

Show me.

There are probably "500 coaches" who could have taken the 1-7 2010 team and produced 14-12 since. From that perspective you should not necessarily believe in Garrett at this point. He has shown very little.

It does require some faith to be excited about Garrett at this point. I get that.

Neither do I believe that Garrett has shown himself to be inferior to this point, though some will proclaim the Detroit, NE, AZ, & NY losses do just that.

Said another way, and I believe the VAST majority of the board feels this way, "the jury is still out on Garrett."

There are those, full of faith, that firmly believe the wins are right around the corner. Good for them. But they should also allow room for those who "believe" Garrett will not be able to lift this team to a championship. Because neither has been proven as yet.

[Yakuza Rich]

When we were looking at coaches, Jerry didn’t have much to look at. At the time, I knew Wade had a good record as a head coach, but was known for having his teams play sloppy and uninspired football.

Still, I was for the move as I figured that Wade could turn around the defense and get us schematically out of the Dark Ages. Then Garrett could be prepped to take over in 3-4 years and hopefully we would be in good position to become a dominant franchise.

Unfortunately, I never saw the hidden problems in the future. It wasn’t all Wade’s fault, but I think we would have had more discipline throughout the team. Maybe instead of hiring Wade we could have hired Ron Rivera, but even that was a risky proposition.

What happened over Wade’s coaching term was that players who were never problems in the locker room, slowly started to become problems, like Newman. Then other guys would turn it on and off like a faucet, such as Spencer, Canty, Bennett, Crayton, Barber, Jenkins, Bigg, etc. If anything we became very soft and just made dumb plays on the field. I think that’s because Wade’s philosophy was to watch film and talk things over whereas Garrett’s philosophy is to keep working on it in practice until the team gets it right.

Again, it’s not all Wade’s fault. The organization prefers athleticism over football smarts and toughness. Always has and probably always will (although getting guys like Lee, Matt Johnson, etc have given me hope). Whether or not Jerry makes the decisions or whatever, he definitely sets the tone in that field.

Part of my problem with Wade is that line of thinking that ‘players won’t listen to the coach’ is somehow NOT the coaches fault. That’s why I was always amazed last year when they used that excuse with ex-Red Sox manager Terry Francona. If players are not going to listen to the coach then coach either needs to make sure they listen in the end or be replaced. I can’t imagine too many players sticking around that wouldn’t listen to Landry or Jimmy. It’s really this modern day built in excuse for coaching incompetency…blame the players for not listening.

I got really sick of this in the 2010 season because after the 2008 season Wade stated he would change the way he acted. The players laughed at him, but Wade did indeed change in 2009 and wound up having his most successful season as coach. And what was Wade’s response? Going back to ole Wade. And he got canned midway thru the next season, and rightfully so.







YR

[CoCo]

Originally Posted by Yakuza Rich

When we were looking at coaches, Jerry didn’t have much to look at. At the time, I knew Wade had a good record as a head coach, but was known for having his teams play sloppy and uninspired football.

Still, I was for the move as I figured that Wade could turn around the defense and get us schematically out of the Dark Ages. Then Garrett could be prepped to take over in 3-4 years and hopefully we would be in good position to become a dominant franchise.

Unfortunately, I never saw the hidden problems in the future. It wasn’t all Wade’s fault, but I think we would have had more discipline throughout the team. Maybe instead of hiring Wade we could have hired Ron Rivera, but even that was a risky proposition.

[View Full Quote]What happened over Wade’s coaching term was that players who were never problems in the locker room, slowly started to become problems, like Newman. Then other guys would turn it on and off like a faucet, such as Spencer, Canty, Bennett, Crayton, Barber, Jenkins, Bigg, etc. If anything we became very soft and just made dumb plays on the field. I think that’s because Wade’s philosophy was to watch film and talk things over whereas Garrett’s philosophy is to keep working on it in practice until the team gets it right.

Again, it’s not all Wade’s fault. The organization prefers athleticism over football smarts and toughness. Always has and probably always will (although getting guys like Lee, Matt Johnson, etc have given me hope). Whether or not Jerry makes the decisions or whatever, he definitely sets the tone in that field.

Part of my problem with Wade is that line of thinking that ‘players won’t listen to the coach’ is somehow NOT the coaches fault. That’s why I was always amazed last year when they used that excuse with ex-Red Sox manager Terry Francona. If players are not going to listen to the coach then coach either needs to make sure they listen in the end or be replaced. I can’t imagine too many players sticking around that wouldn’t listen to Landry or Jimmy. It’s really this modern day built in excuse for coaching incompetency…blame the players for not listening.

I got really sick of this in the 2010 season because after the 2008 season Wade stated he would change the way he acted. The players laughed at him, but Wade did indeed change in 2009 and wound up having his most successful season as coach. And what was Wade’s response? Going back to ole Wade. And he got canned midway thru the next season, and rightfully so.

Lots here that I agree with.

Living in Denver and witnessing him first hand I had strong reservations about the hiring of Wade as HC. Loved his DC expertise but feared his HC approach. I had more hope in Turner as HC but again saw the value of Wade's DC mind. So I hoped Wade could lift the D to a new level and that the players could "make due" without a strong HC influence. And it worked, for awhile.

I actually was surprised that it took so long for the Dallas community to turn on Wade because he is such a ridiculously easy target because of his way. But the turning on Wade started immediately when we lost that PO game at home to NYG after earning the #1 seed because of how he responded.

What followed in 2008, 2009 & 2010 are probably some of the most lost years in franchise history because in retrospect Wade did not have what it took to lift a team past that. Easy to say now, but there were very strong indications that was true on the day Wade was hired. Most simply didn't want to believe it.

[xwalker]

My point in starting this post was not to place blame on Wade, but to analyze why certain things happened to this team.

Would MartyB have achieved his potential under Jimmy or Parcells ?

Olinemen like Bigg and Gurode don't normally go from Pro Bowler to terrible at age 32/33 unless they have a major injury or a terrible work ethic.

Would Wade have cut Holland and forced him to get into shape or just kept him and let him play fat.

Will Garrett's focus on RKG prevent this type of problem in the future?

Would the 2009 draft have been different with Garrett as the Head Coach?
IMO, the 2009 draft failed because the team didn't put enough focus on mental-makeup when evaluating players. Guys like Brewster and Jason Williams had some physical talent, but didn't have the correct mental-makeup.

Garrett even hired an outside company to help evaluate the mental-makeup of draft prospects this year. Will it help?