Jimmy said guys feared letting down their teamates

[Yakuza Rich]

Originally Posted by junk

Boy I'm tired of this. In Jimmy's 4 years in Miami, they won 2 playoff games.

Dallas has won 2 playoff games in the last 16 years.

If Jimmy's time in Miami was a "complete failure" what has the last 16 years in Dallas been?

1. Dallas won a Super Bowl without Jimmy.

2. I think it's been widely acknowledge that the Cowboys lack of success has been a failure.

3. The Dolphins had a *worse* record 4 years before Jimmy under Shula and 4 years after Jimmy with Wannstedt (and Jay Fiedler).

4. 62-7

It wasn't like he was taking over a 3-13 Dolphins squad or that they fell off the earth after he left. He made a bad decision coming to the Dolphins, just like Jerry made a bad decision letting him go.






YR

[yimyammer]

Originally Posted by Joe Rod

Jason has been preaching for a while now about "the right type of guys". I honestly don't think that is random coach-speak. He believes it. Honestly, he may have a point when it comes to this squad.

Garrett Quote:


These last two drafts have been about getting guys that want to go to work every day, that are interested in and have the smarts to maximize their talent. They are starting to infiltrate our roster, but there are still not enough of them.

Bruce Carter, Tyron Smith, DeMarco Murray, Morris Claiborne, Tyrone Crawford. I can't remember hearing about any of the draft choices the last two years being lazy, dumb, troublesome, etc since they have joined Dallas. They eat and breathe football, they have high motors.

The free agents have all been high motor guys. Carr is passionate about playing football, Church was resigned.

[View Full Quote]I look for Ogletree to finally be gone this offseason, as well as Felix Jones and a few others that are too used to just getting by. I look for Dallas to sign/draft two new starters on the line at a minimum, hopefully a right tackle to challenge Free. They really need Dwayne Harris, Danny Coale and Matt Johnson to pan out because they all have the attributes that JG is looking for and the team is needs upgrades in those positions. Lissemore and/or Crawford will hopefully be a starting DE next year.

I am not happy with this team anymore than the next guy, and I am at the point where I simply can't stand to hear any more from Jerry Jones, but I do think Jason Garrett has a plan that can succeed if he can get the players and work through the hindrance of having Jerry as his employer.

i like this post and agree with a lot of it, sure Garrett's got his faults as any coach will, but I really like his overall philosophy and believe it can bear fruit eventually. He may be a better "walk around coach" but i'm not sure if that's Garrett's choice or something Jerry is demanding since he's said so many times that he learned from Joe Gibbs that it gives a coach credibility with the players when a coach also acts as a coordinator.

However, I never get tired of seeing Jerry get roasted, I just can't stand the man.

[KJJ]

Originally Posted by Mash

I wonder what happened in Miami? It was a complete failure there ....didnt Jimmy put enough fear into the players?

A complete failure? The Dolphins made the playoffs 3 of the 4 years Jimmy coached them winning 2 playoff games. How is that a complete failure? Jimmy was 500 his first year in Miami and had winning seasons the next 3 years. When he arrived in Miami Dan Marino had injury issues and was in decline and the Dolphins had cap problems.

[Rack Bauer]

Originally Posted by Mash

Really.....so based on wins and losses....you come to the conclusion that players dont care for one another.....they dont fear in letting their teammates down?

Thats it....wow....

Jimmy said they don't fear for their jobs, don't think he said anything about them not caring for one another.

[bbailey423]

Originally Posted by Mash

Really.....so based on wins and losses....you come to the conclusion that players dont care for one another.....they dont fear in letting their teammates down?

Thats it....wow....

Yes I do. If Ware and Witten are the 1st ballot HOFers that MANY on this board claim they are...then how come they have not gotten better results from their teamates. Part of being a great player is making others around you better. Like I said, Spencer admitted he was not into football as much as he needed to be. When you think about how people scream about Ware not getting any help rushing the passer. You would think Ware would be in the ear of the guy on the other side of him every day in the offseason and during the season. You would think Witten could Marty B to knock of the Homey the Clown act. Neither happened. So YES...I question how much they feared letting DeMArcus or Jason down.

Listen...I did not say it is the only winning formula. But God knows we have dysfunction in the front office...and there has been dysfunction in the coaching ranks....so I simply pointed out that unlike the teams of the 90s...these guys do not seem to fear letting each other down. The results speak for themsevles. And not just on the scoreboard. I am talking about off field behaviour. I am talking about film study (Dez and Ogletree)...I am talking about conditioning (Felix)...and in spite of it all....Dez kept his job...Ogletree made the team (not sure why)...and Felix had to lose us a game before he was YANKED from kickoff returns...not to mention Dez fumbling away a game before he was YANKED off punt return.

[yimyammer]

Originally Posted by Yakuza Rich

Not only that, I highly doubt that Jimmy ruled primarily by fear because he would never be a great leader if that was the case.

From my experience, great leaders are great at using forms of punishment and reward in order to motivate the player. For every fear that Jimmy used, I would be money that he also motivated players by letting them know that if they did what he told them, they would reap the rewards.

Constant fear only motivates people so far and often backfires in the end.

And Jimmy even said that if Troy Aikman was sleeping, he would just tell Troy to wake up because Troy was a great player. I also heard stories of how he allowed Erik Williams to basically do whatever he wanted.

[View Full Quote]I think the tough part for any coach, particularly somebody like Jimmy, is that once you are successful you have to find ways to continue to motivate players. It's not like college where you can win a national championship and then a bunch of players leave and a bunch of new, motivated players come in. In the NFL, for better or for worse, you're stuck with guys for a while.

That's one of the reasons why I favor stockpiling draft picks each year. Regardless if you are successful or unsuccessful, it brings in new guys and gives the team room to possibly throw out the old guys whom are no longer as motivated as they once were. Of course, you have to develop new talent as well.




YR

Nate talked about how Jimmy used fear with Tim McMahon on his show yesterday, but unfortunately I cant find that podcast. He talked about it as well here:

http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=8604108

He didn't go into as much detail in the link above but I thought what he said was pretty interesting and creative on Jimmys part

As far as it not being like college, I actually think its more like college than its ever been given that the average career is something like 3.5 years and the salary cap and free agency forces teams to churn more than they would probably like to. I think what you said is important in todays NFL and one of the qualities of a good coach.

Keep the players around that believe in your message/philosophy and won't get tired of it and then constantly bring in young talent to learn the teams message/philosophy that will be backed up & demonstrated by those veterans the team decides to keep long term.

[Dodger]

Originally Posted by Joe Rod

These last two drafts have been about getting guys that want to go to work every day, that are interested in and have the smarts to maximize their talent. They are starting to infiltrate our roster, but there are still not enough of them.

Bruce Carter, Tyron Smith, DeMarco Murray, Morris Claiborne, Tyrone Crawford. I can't remember hearing about any of the draft choices the last two years being lazy, dumb, troublesome, etc since they have joined Dallas. They eat and breathe football, they have high motors.

The free agents have all been high motor guys. Carr is passionate about playing football, Church was resigned.

[View Full Quote]I look for Ogletree to finally be gone this offseason, as well as Felix Jones and a few others that are too used to just getting by. I look for Dallas to sign/draft two new starters on the line at a minimum, hopefully a right tackle to challenge Free. They really need Dwayne Harris, Danny Coale and Matt Johnson to pan out because they all have the attributes that JG is looking for and the team is needs upgrades in those positions. Lissemore and/or Crawford will hopefully be a starting DE next year.

All I can say is I hope you're right.

In the meantime, why Garrett continues to play players who hurt the team is beyond puzzling to me.

[Proximo]

Originally Posted by bbailey423

There is NONE of that in Dallas today. I know this is a tired argument for some people, but it is unreal to me how devoid this lockeroom is of an idenity and/or leaders.

Which is why I never become overwhelmed with glee when people go on and on about the greatness of Ware, or Witten or Romo or any of these so called great players in this era of Cowboys football. Or do we think this guy or that guy is going to the HOF....or if this guy or that guy is going to make the Pro Bowl. Sorry...but right now....WHO CARES!!!!!!!!!!!! We do NOT win!!!!!!!!!!!

Wasn't it just 2 years ago Spencer admitted to not being all that focused on football. You let that happen on your watch Demarcus?

Do we have to go over every wart on Marty B? You let that happen on your watch Jason Witten

Dez and Ogletree STILL don't know where to lineup. You let that happen on your watch Miles Austin?

[View Full Quote]Our so called core (Romo, Ware, Witten, Ratliff, Miles, Hatcher, Spears)....have been the core of the most dissapointing era of Cowboy football. And to think about the stats Romo, Ware, Witten, Miles put up. And too think about how well they have been compensated by Jerry Jones. And all of this without any REAL impact on winning football games.

Jimmy was a GREAT coach...but he also had guys that were not going to let the guy next to them keep them from hoisting that Lombardi.

Emmit declared before his rookie year that he was going to be the all time leading rusher in NFL history...and he worked, carried himself, studied, and gutted it out to a degree that his teamates were going to do everything they could to help him reach that goal

Micheal Irvin talked about how he was afraid to go across the middle, but he also said that they only way he was going to feed his family and escape a trouble upbringing was to go accross the middle.

Charles Haley famously put a hole in the lockeroom wall after the Cowboys fell into an 0-2 hole becaus of a holdout by Emmit Smith. And he basically TOLD Jerry to get Emmit signed.

I cannot help but shake my head when I think about what has become of my favorite sports team. And it is not about winning Super Bowls EVERY year....it is about being an organization with an idenity. With a purpose. With a goal. With a "way of doing things"...that allows us to be consistently in the hunt. We are not that...and have not been that in a long time. Yet we continue to hear all the billionaires (Jerry and his family)...and the millionaires (Jason and several of the players)....tell us about hard they are working and how no one wants to win more than them. It is just depressing. We have lost 9 of our last 13. And God bless some of the fans of this team...but there are still threads discussing how we can run the table the rest of the year. Since Jason has taken over we have the MOST losses by 6 points or less in the ENTIRE NFL. 11!!!! Some see that as progress. I see that as something that is wrong in Dallas...that STILL has not been fixed.

But I love the Cowboys. Not sure what my recourse is.

The idea that a player like Marty B being substandard is somehow a reflection of Jason Witten is ridiculous. Players play, coaches coach. The great core players on any team are not responsible for getting the most out of the players that are beneath them on the depth chart. These players come in to the league as adults, not adolescents. If somebody's game is going to be elevated by the great players around them, they have to be willing to be influenced. Marty B is a clown. Witten can't change that. And Marty will be a clown for whatever team he plays for. It's in his nature, part of his character. It's the coaches and FO's responsibility to acquire players that they feel they can mold and fit into their plans. A players' lack of development is not an indictment of the player that's above him on the depth chart, it's an indictment of himself first and foremost, and the coaching staff. These are grown men.

[CaptainMorgan]

Originally Posted by Rack Bauer

It depends how their contract is structured.


But the guys not playing up to their "Potential" and are still starting or playing a significant amount of snaps don't have contract that would prohibit them from being cut (Dez, Otree, Bernardeau mainly).

This is why you as GM have to make better more sound decisions when it comes to structuring contracts and not arbitrarily handing out the types of extensions we do to medicore players with question marks.

How many of these current players would be starting on a Jimmy Johnson team? You think guys like Scandrick and Jenkins ore Felix would be here? Not on your life.

[CyberB0b]

He also believed in taking smart players.

[Bleu Star]

Originally Posted by yimyammer

thats not all they feared

I was listening to the radio yesterday and Nate Newton talked about how Jimmy knew each of his players and used a different type of fear to motivate each one. My best recollection of what he said:

[View Full Quote]With Nate, he told him he was going to move him to right guard and that scared him because he was afraid he'd lose his job because he's a big guy having to work in space against guys like Reggie White, etc so he busted his hump in response. Leon Lett was afraid of getting embarrassed (ironic eh?) so Jimmy would call him out and Leon would start sweating bullets so Leon would work his *** off to avoid being called out. Michael Irvin was afraid of losing money because he promised his dad he would take care of his family so Jimmy floated out the notion they might be interested in trading Irvin in order to make him sweat and send a message to the team no one is untouchable. None of these creative ways of motivating players had anything to do with a salary cap.

Excellent post! The only thing this team fears is the possibility of only getting one crumpet instead of two with the daily tea. Gotta get there early to get two so don't stay too late on the practice field or in the film room. Those crumpets go fast!

[ykc]

I disagree, this is Barry Switzer philosophy. Teams with leaders like Ray Lewis, Troy Polamalu and Tom Brady make sure that the locker room understand what is most important thing for the team. You can put bad players in their teams but the bad players do not corrupt their locker rooms, either they produce or they are history.

Romo's comment when lost to Philly sums up the attitude of the core of cowboys. Ware is an awesome player but he is not going to get into anybody's face even if they make 10 mistakes in every game for entire season, he will probably try to double his production but he WILL not get into the face of his teammate and make them accountable.

All the good players on the team want to lead by example, but it is not working. The very thought of Romo telling them where to line up after 2 seasons together is disgusting to see, I do not see this with any other team in NFL. Why is that? I want to bench the player who forgot the assignment 1 quarter? 1 series? 1 play? to send a message? Nope, they just keep trotting them out like 8-5 job employees

Originally Posted by Proximo

The idea that a player like Marty B being substandard is somehow a reflection of Jason Witten is ridiculous. Players play, coaches coach. The great core players on any team are not responsible for getting the most out of the players that are beneath them on the depth chart. These players come in to the league as adults, not adolescents. If somebody's game is going to be elevated by the great players around them, they have to be willing to be influenced. Marty B is a clown. Witten can't change that. And Marty will be a clown for whatever team he plays for. It's in his nature, part of his character. It's the coaches and FO's responsibility to acquire players that they feel they can mold and fit into their plans. A players' lack of development is not an indictment of the player that's above him on the depth chart, it's an indictment of himself first and foremost, and the coaching staff. These are grown men.

[Proximo]

Originally Posted by ykc

I disagree, this is Barry Switzer philosophy. Teams with leaders like Ray Lewis, Troy Polamalu and Tom Brady make sure that the locker room understand what is most important thing for the team. You can put bad players in their teams but the bad players do not corrupt their locker rooms, either they produce or they are history.

Romo's comment when lost to Philly sums up the attitude of the core of cowboys. Ware is an awesome player but he is not going to get into anybody's face even if they make 10 mistakes in every game for entire season, he will probably try to double his production but he WILL not get into the face of his teammate and make them accountable.

[View Full Quote]All the good players on the team want to lead by example, but it is not working. The very thought of Romo telling them where to line up after 2 seasons together is disgusting to see, I do not see this with any other team in NFL. Why is that? I want to bench the player who forgot the assignment 1 quarter? 1 series? 1 play? to send a message? Nope, they just keep trotting them out like 8-5 job employees

I understand what you're saying but you have to realize that this whole idea of "core leader players" making the players beneath them rise up only works up until a certain point. Like I said, these are grown men. Marty B is actually the perfect example. Some people simply are the way they are. Ultimately, he was a bad draft pick. As a person he wasn't suited to play second fiddle and sit in the shadow of Witten. He let it be known. I don't think any other player on the team was going to change that, and now he's gone. It comes down to the front office bringing in the kind of players that have the character that you want on your team. This team has lacked that in the past, however I think Garrett is determined to reverse that, and I think we're headed in the right direction in that respect.

However, back to my original point; those "leader" players you mentioned were more successful in their respective locker rooms because they had players that were more willing to rise up and buy in. Players like Marty B did us no good, and probably shouldn't have been brought on in the first place. I guess what I'm trying to say is, as important as it is to have those "leader type players", it's just as important to have young players underneath with the right kind of mentality, the type that are ready and willing to buy in and do the right things. Some people can't and won't follow the lead of a great leader because they themselves lack character, and I think we may have had some of those types on our team in recent years. That should not be an indictment of the leaders that we do have.

[Mash]

Originally Posted by KJJ

A complete failure? The Dolphins made the playoffs 3 of the 4 years Jimmy coached them winning 2 playoff games. How is that a complete failure? Jimmy was 500 his first year in Miami and had winning seasons the next 3 years. When he arrived in Miami Dan Marino had injury issues and was in decline and the Dolphins had cap problems.

I understand...sorry...maybe complete failure was too strong of a word....but even with some lousy playoff wins.....Jimmy Genius with all his ego....really didnt do much there. Missed on alot of picks.....realized that building a team with a cap in place is alot harder then he thought.

Miami didnt all of sudden were influxed with talent when Jimmy left.....they were on a downhill slope and Jimmy knew it......so he left...took his money and retired.

I may of overreacted about Jimmy.....I did really like him here...and wished he stayed here....but he also underminded the organization with his inquires about coaching another team. Like Big Bill did when he was coach here....Being employed and under contract and throwing lines out for another coaching job. IMHO that just eats at me....and I never will respect
that....

Concerning "smart players" .....I dont know....the hurricane players in Miami ran wide on their off time....In Dallas we had the "white house" ....we had alot of instances......players got away with alot because Jimmy cared about winning and performing on Sunday......nothing else....off field stuff....wasnt his concern.

In all honesty....I dont remember Jimmy cutting a worthwhile player.....scrubs....sure.....alot easier to add and release multiple scrubs...with no salary cap.

JMHO of course

[bbailey423]

Originally Posted by Proximo

The idea that a player like Marty B being substandard is somehow a reflection of Jason Witten is ridiculous. Players play, coaches coach. The great core players on any team are not responsible for getting the most out of the players that are beneath them on the depth chart. These players come in to the league as adults, not adolescents. If somebody's game is going to be elevated by the great players around them, they have to be willing to be influenced. Marty B is a clown. Witten can't change that. And Marty will be a clown for whatever team he plays for. It's in his nature, part of his character. It's the coaches and FO's responsibility to acquire players that they feel they can mold and fit into their plans. A players' lack of development is not an indictment of the player that's above him on the depth chart, it's an indictment of himself first and foremost, and the coaching staff. These are grown men.

your opinion on this is UNFORTUNATELY probably how the best players on this team view the situations....which is EXACTLY why they will NEVER win as Dallas Cowboys. They will have to catch on somewhere else at the end of their careers to try and win one. And I will never consider Ware, Witten etc....as some of the greatest Cowboys because they did not make enough impact to affect WINNING. Too many players have come into THEIR lockeroom and immediatley become the leaders (Keith Brookings)....or use it as a stage for their comedy routine (Marty B). And that is because WINNING is not the SINGLE focus of this lockeroom. I personally think a couple of players on this team.....at this point.....are looking to pad their stats and make sure they get their's.....so they can ultimately make the Ring of Honor or Hall of Fame. But I ask you....how many guys in the Ring Of Honor have ONE......ONE....playoff victory in their careers in Dallas?