A Look At The Value Of Our Draft Picks

[Qwickdraw]

Originally Posted by KDWilliams85

I can sum this up in one nifty little paragraph.

My logic is this: I'm not judging the players. I'm judging the logic of the pick. Canty is a good player. Do we need him? No. Is he a welcomed convenience. YES! Does that make the player bad? No. Does it question the logic of the pick? YES! Canty is a good player. Did we draft him under the premise that he's going to start day one? No. Did we draft him under the premise that he can help us? YES!

Afterthought:

[View Full Quote]You and Qwickdraw seem to think that player skill, placement in the draft, and team need are the same thing. They're not. If they were, it would go down to the social element of things. If they were, everyone would be on a level playing field and there wouldn't be an order to things. There wouldn't be a draft. There'd only be a big pool of players and whoever gets ahold them first, gets them. Ironically enough, that's what the draft is. The draft adds a business aspect to a concept that doesn't and shouldn't need one. The draft is a formality that defines who goes where. That's all. Other than that, it is completely meaningless when it comes time to play. It doesn't make sense to place disparity on a concept that becomes meaningless on opening kickoff. Because then, they're all football players and the draft is long over.

You two place value on the PICK and not the player. Value on the player is how it works.

Alright guy, I tried to discuss on an intelectual level here but I have given up. I can't understand half of what you write because it's in circles.
Also, I started this thread to discuss the value of a draft pick and not a player. If you wanted to try and change the direction of my original topic, you should have started your own thread. (A good title would be- "KD Williams talks in circles about the value of Cleveland's Defensive Line and the effect it has on the psyche of promising players that end up on teams who don't need them, I don't why I am going so deep with my analysis- thread")

I see you have a Marion Barber sig. You know, we don't NEED him. We have Julius Jones. Does that mean he also was not a valuable pick? Get real.

[KDWilliams85]

Originally Posted by Qwickdraw

What makes Spears and Canty so different?
Why is Spears going to start for sure in your mind, yet Canty doesn't have a chance?
It doesn't make sense.
Why? Becasue one was drafted higher than the other?
That's ridiculous.

Quite the contrary. Canty as just as good a shot as Spears does. But why does Spears start and Canty doesn't? Injury. If the season were to start tomorrow, Spears would start over Canty. The unforeseeable aspect dominates the game.

Spears and Canty are in the same boat. Both are rookies. Both are similar in size and ability. Spears may have a leg up because he's entitled to a littled more money. But Canty has a leg up because he has more experience in a 3-4 defense. Both could make the team. Both could start. One could get cut. Both could get cut. You don't know and neither do I. But we do know that both have a chance to compete for a job.

Half right. You're right about Spears getting more money. I can assure you for at least one year, Canty and Spears would be a Dallas Cowboy.

I noticed your little wager requires us to run a 3-4 every play of every game. You don't sound too confident seeing as how last year, we were a 4-3 defense and still ran a 3-4 on occasion. Do you think I'm a moron? I'd have to be to take that bet. I will however bet you any amount you prefer that we run a 3-4 more often than last year and continually increase the amount we use it throughout BPs stay here and it will ultimately be our base defense before his time here is up.

I think you're quite perceptive but a little arrogant. By the look of things, I'd agree with your assessment of that we'd use 3-4 more often. But as I demonstrated earlier, you're basing the actions of the team on a public/media outcry instead of what it exactly is. I'd be a moron to take your bet because I know you're right just like you knew I was right. I won't make/take a bet that I could have a legit chance of losing.

And I never said Canty would steal a job from Ellis or Glover. (Although, he could) I said Ellis or Glover may not be here come August.

Could Canty take a spot from Ellis? Yeah. But will he granted the position he's in and the environment that those two present? No. That's the make all/break all of this whole case. Ware, Spears, Burnett, and maybe even Barber have the opportunity to take positions from the incumbent. Ware especially due to his versatility. If Dallas actually thought that Ellis had a shot of losing his job to Canty, they'd drag him in and demand a contract renegotiation. For now, Canty is a backup and nothing more which really pisses me off.

[Scotman]

There's no point in me trying to convince you that Canty was a NEED for our team. But, even if he wasn't, I would've taken him anyway based on what I've seen and read. I'd much rather pick based on a player's skill than our need. Picking with an emphasis based on need rather than on skill is what put our team into this position in the first place.

I just thought that Quickdraw backed up is "value" system with some support from other poepl you didn't. Bring back information that is quantifiable to support yours and I'll be a lot more willing to be influenced.

Either way, I am completely pumped about the draft and am really looking forward to camp this year!
Scot

[KDWilliams85]

Originally Posted by Scotman

There's no point in me trying to convince you that Canty was a NEED for our team. But, even if he wasn't, I would've taken him anyway based on what I've seen and read. I'd much rather pick based on a player's skill than our need. Picking with an emphasis based on need rather than on skill is what put our team into this position in the first place.

I just thought that Quickdraw backed up is "value" system with some support from other poepl you didn't. Bring back information that is quantifiable to support yours and I'll be a lot more willing to be influenced.

Either way, I am completely pumped about the draft and am really looking forward to camp this year!
Scot

Scotman, you see things as I do now. You see Canty as a convenience instead of a need like other teams would have seen him and you see players based on skill instead of where a team would imagine them falling.

A value system based on a draft instead of a player's willingness to join a team is absolutely meaningless.

You can't quantify potential. You can't quantify skill. You can base comparisons on those things but you can't say, "Chris Canty has the skill of a Greg Ellis" or "Chris Canty has the potential to be the greatest player in the game" because they are all on a level playing field. It's not fair to the players to rate each other higher than others because of some unncessary claim such as the draft.

I'm pumped about the draft and about training camp too and at the end of the day, that's all that matters. It's too bad that Qwickdraw won't realize that now instead of when it actually doesn't matter.

[Qwickdraw]

If I'm not mistaken, (I hope I'm not because if so, none of your statements even make sense) all of your statements are being made under the impression that Canty is and will be too injured to play this year or at least the beginning of the season. Correct?

All of my statements are assuming Canty is healthy. It was stated that Canty should be ready and recovered for training camp enough to compete for a job and that he may heal entirely. (Although if Canty doesn't play until next year, he still may posess great value)
If the season were to start tomorrow, neither would start. The season doesn't start tomorrow so that's a moot example, anyhow.

My 3-4 guarantee has NOTHING to do with the public or media. It is my own assesment based on what I have heard our GM and Head Coach say, our draft picks and free agent signings, our release of Coakley, and our Head Coach's preferred defnsive scheme and history. If you don't see it in the works as we speak then you, my friend, are blind.

I feel like I'm talking to a 9 year old here.

I ask you again...
Is Marion Barber not a valuable pick even though we don't need him? We have 3 to 4 RBs already on the roster. Does that mean Barber has no value because technically, he could start for another team and earn more carries than he will here?

[KDWilliams85]

Here we go. Last time.

Originally Posted by Qwickdraw

If I'm not mistaken, (I hope I'm not because if so, none of your statements even make sense) all of your statements are being made under the impression that Canty is and will be too injured to play this year or at least the beginning of the season. Correct?

No.

All of my statements are assuming Canty is healthy. It was stated that Canty should be ready and recovered for training camp enough to compete for a job and that he may heal entirely.
If the season were to start tomorrow, neither would start. The season doesn't start tomorrow so that's a moot example, anyhow.

Whether he's healthy or not is meaningless here. He has no environment to start. He'll definitely compete in the rotation but that isn't the relevant issue.

My 3-4 guarantee has NOTHING to do with the public or media. It is my own assesment based on what I have heard our GM and Head Coach say, our draft picks and free agent signings, our release of Coakley, and our Head Coach's preferred defnsive scheme and history. If you don't see it in the works as we speak then you, my friend, are blind.

Are you sure? Because I've heard time and time again that Parcells wants a 3-4 defense. Where did that come from? The what... the MEDIA. Historical reference is a PUBLIC outlet. The draft, FA signings, and the Coakley release is also a MEDIA circus. Whether or not you agree with them is irrelevant. No, I'm not blind. I won't jump on a bandwagon that has no firm support until gameday. If I'm blind, you're a sheep. I'd rather be blind and oblivious than submissive and informed.

I feel like I'm talking to a 9 year old here.

Nine year olds have a clarity that adults lack so that's really a complement. :-)

As for me... I'm done. If I haven't made my position clear by now... I'm afraid, for you, that you won't ever get it. In case though... I'll slim it down to this: It's about the player, not the pick.

As for you dogging Barber... I don't think we needed him. I think he's a good player. We could have picked friggin' Joe Schmo from some Div II school and if I liked the report on him, I'd like the guy.

[Qwickdraw]

I can't discuss this any further.

You came onto my thread to debate the meaning of value with me when I clearly stated my intentions from the get go. This is value of where a player was selected in the draft versus wher they were projected be worth selecting. NOT how valuable they are to the Dallas Cowboys or the Cleveland Browns or the freakin Denver Nuggets for that matter.

You just told me the difference between Spears and Canty was one thing. "INJURY". Then you contradicted yourself by saying, "Whether he's healthy or not is meaningless here".

You also said that Scot and I were wrong and that if the draft was designed the way we look at it... it would be a big pool of players that are chosen in sequential order. Then you said, the draft is just that.
?
You're killin me, guy.

Lay off the trees.

"Nine year olds have a clarity that adults lack."

They also pee their pants.

When did I dog Barber? You're unable to convey your side of the argument properly and hear only what you want to hear to support your own argument. I LOVE the Barber pick. Why because I think he's a real value, especially given what we spent to get him. You didn't answer my question but rather tried to make me look foolish by putting words in my mouth.

Chill with the politics and doubletalk bro. Take that ish to the O'Reilly Factor.
I'm sorry you're still angy because Bush got re-elected.

Historical references are public outlets. Give me a break. That statement doesn't even make sense.

[Doomsday101]

This is what football has turned into? and imaginary point system? none of that crud matters, what these guys do from here on out is all that matter all the rest of this is BS

[Qwickdraw]

Originally Posted by Doomsday101

This is what football has turned into? and imaginary point system? none of that crud matters, what these guys do from here on out is all that matter all the rest of this is BS

OMG.

You know, next time I want to share some of my optimism and excitement with fellow Cowboys fans... I'll just keep it to myself.

Shame on me.

[Doomsday101]

LOL....Don't take it personally, MY AC is out at the house did not get a lot of sleep lastnight. LOL I'm thrilled with the picks it just those number system is just a bit nerdy for me, I only care about production not a point system that when you get right down to it means nothing in the end. If any of these guys bomb out no one is going to look back and say well his point system in the draft was great.

[Ashwynn]

While I think they are all great picks and I love em all, I also think a truer measure of a teams drafts can be summed up in three words in the form of a question. Weakness to Strenght? Did the D line go from a weakness to a strong point of the team. Consider there are rumors of trading Glover and pple aren't batting an eye, would you be willing to trade Glover off Last Years squad. Heck no, that would have killed us.

The boys have upgraded three areas of weakness. D line, Secondary and Depth. At D line, secondary and RB.

All these picks are great value so long as they dont get hurt or turn into a dud. I cant remember the last time I was so thrilled and optomistic about an upcoming Cowboys season.

[SuspectCorner]

i just wanna see an effective rotation that works in the kids (giving them needed experience) and keeps our defensive stalwarts like ellis, glover, dat, roy and T-new fresh for the 4th quarter "push".

there's nothing wrong with trying to quantify the value of the individual draft picks. but why argue over it when the only "value" that really matters is the overall "yards and points allowed" by the defense as a unit?

even fantasy wonks know enough to stick to that basic format.