Gosselin on Irvin Snub

[tyke1doe]

Originally Posted by Rack

I agree. Moon should not have made it cuz of his skin color anyway. The best FOOTBALL players should be in the HoF... black, white, or other should have nothing to do with it.


Moon's numbers are impressive, but I grew up watching him. He wasn't a hall of fame caliber QB.

Except the fact that the NFL discriminated against black quarterbacks, and that is as much a part of its history as the shot gun or the forward pass.

If taken in that context, I can understand why Moon made it. But he didn't just make it because of his color alone. He, despite his adversity, finished fourth on the all-time passing list behind Marino, Elway and Favre.

Those all will be Hall of Famers. Moon belongs in the Hall of Fame.

[Billy Bullocks]

Originally Posted by Bledsoe4MVP

Irvin didn't get in these last few years because of his off the field issues...plain and simple.

Will he get in the HOF someday...ABSOLUTELY, he was one of the greatest receivers to play the game and can't be denied just because he's not a quality human being off the field.

Just because he has had problems with drugs doesnt make him a bad person. I hate when people make this generaliztion. Bad decisions do not make you a bad person. He didn't go beating people up, he hurt himself.

From the way he speaks about his former teammates, he seems like he's probably a great guy off the field.

[Bob Sacamano]

Originally Posted by Billy Bullocks

Just because he has had problems with drugs doesnt make him a bad person. I hate when people make this generaliztion. Bad decisions do not make you a bad person. He didn't go beating people up, he hurt himself.

From the way he speaks about his former teammates, he seems like he's probably a great guy off the field.

do I hear a reiteration?

[Bledsoe4MVP]

Originally Posted by Billy Bullocks

Just because he has had problems with drugs doesnt make him a bad person. I hate when people make this generaliztion. Bad decisions do not make you a bad person. He didn't go beating people up, he hurt himself.

From the way he speaks about his former teammates, he seems like he's probably a great guy off the field.

Like i told summerisfunner, that came out wrong....I didn't mean that I personally believe that to be the case....but the media and HOF panel is most certainly going to hold it against him and make an example of him.

[CrazyCowboy]

Originally Posted by Encore

Warren Moon's NO Superbowls were enough to get him in.

That had my vote!

[StanleySpadowski]

Originally Posted by ravidubey

IMHO Warren Moon is a no-brainer for the HOF. 5 straight Grey Cups in Canada (you joke, but that's not easy for anyone to do) and then lighting it up in Houston before the damned run-and-shoot offense was put in in 1990. He goes to Minnesota and tears it up some more (4000+ yards in each season before getting injured), and kicks butt again in Seattle tossing 22 TDs to Joey Galloway in two seasons. He ended his career as a backup in KC. His stats: 3,988 completions for 49,325 yards (the fourth-highest in NFL history), 291 touchdown passes (if you add in his Canada stats we're talking 5,357 completions for 70,613 yards and 435 touchdowns)-- forget his status as a pioneer for African American QB's and his charitable work off the field; WM makes it in on sheer football merit. Anyone who can't see that is drunk, ignorant, or ridiculously stubborn with silver and royal blue contact lenses stuck on.

The Pro Football Hall of Fame doesnt' recognize statistics from the CFL, only from leagues that eventually merged into the NFL like the AAFC.

As for being a pioneer, what exactly was he the first black QB to do? I can't think of a single significant accomplishment.

I wouldn't go with off-field issues as a way of supporting him, not guilty isn't the same as innocent.

The only legitimate argument that anyone's made that Moon deserves in is that Fouts made it, but pointing to bad examples doesn't strengthen one's position. Just because some undeserving players made the hall (Fouts, Stallworth, Swann..etc..) doesn't mean others should make it.

If one wants to make that argument, George Seifert and Barry Switzer should be getting in if Madden did.

[Rack Bauer]

Anyone who can't see that is drunk, ignorant, or ridiculously stubborn with silver and royal blue contact lenses stuck on

I don't care about his numbers. If it were about numbers Aikman wouldn't be there. He wasn't a hall of fame caliber football player. PERIOD.

I don't give a what he did in Canada. It's the PRO Football Hall of Fame. If you're gonna count what they do in canada, might as well count their high school stats too.


Warren Moon was a very good football player, but not worthy of the hall of fame.

[Tio]

Originally Posted by Rack

I don't care about his numbers. If it were about numbers Aikman wouldn't be there. He wasn't a hall of fame caliber football player. PERIOD.

I don't give a what he did in Canada. It's the PRO Football Hall of Fame. If you're gonna count what they do in canada, might as well count their high school stats too.


Warren Moon was a very good football player, but not worthy of the hall of fame.

Why do you think that?

[Hostile]

Originally Posted by Bledsoe4MVP

Like i told summerisfunner, that came out wrong....I didn't mean that I personally believe that to be the case....but the media and HOF panel is most certainly going to hold it against him and make an example of him.

Not that I think it will matter, but you should stick to talking football like this and leave the schtick behind.

[WoodysGirl]

While they most only recognize his NFL numbers, I actually do believe Moon's CFL were taken into consideration. People like to stress the PRO in Pro Football HOF, but Pro actually does encompass his CFL numbers as it is a professional football organization as well.

He was definitely a worthy HOF candidate IMO. Whether he was a first-ballot guy, I don't know. But I do think he was worthy of being in the HOF. His numbers speak for themselves, IMO.

I hate the fact that Irvin didn't get in, but I'm not going to castigate the guys who did. Like Gosselin mentioned, there were a lot of worthy candidates this year. My problem with that stmt is that I see future HOF classes only getting stronger.

[Nors]

Only Moons achievments and contributions to the game of football in the NFL are to be considered.

His college or CFL accomplishments have no bearing. His arrest for choking his wife had no bearing on his admission. Horning a convicted gambler and LT a convicted coke abuser were elected in.

His getting in on a first ballot is perplexing at best.

[WoodysGirl]

Originally Posted by Nors

Only Moons achievments and contributions to the game of football in the NFL are to be considered.

Funny can't seem to find anything which states that. I went to Profootball HOF and while it is directly correlated to his NFL achievements, nothing on the site suggests that his CFL accomplishments were to be ignored. [/quote]

His getting in on a first ballot is perplexing at best.

I wouldn't say perplexing.

[StanleySpadowski]

The Pro Football Hall of Fame is "Pro" instead of NFL because when founded, they didn't want to slight other versions of professional football that merged into the NFL. That's why player's like Otto Graham's AAFC accomplishments are noted and considered.

Much the same way that a player's AFL totals are added to his career totals but AFL single season records don't carry over to NFL records.


I believe that the voters are told that CFL, USFL etc service cannot be taken into consideration when voting, but they're also told that off field issues cannot be taken into consideration and we know that they do have some bearing.

[davidyee]

Originally Posted by Rack

I don't care about his numbers. If it were about numbers Aikman wouldn't be there. He wasn't a hall of fame caliber football player. PERIOD.

I don't give a what he did in Canada. It's the PRO Football Hall of Fame. If you're gonna count what they do in canada, might as well count their high school stats too.


Warren Moon was a very good football player, but not worthy of the hall of fame.

...not a single U.S. high school who could field a team that would beat a CFL team. The majority of the players are American and they would salivate at the opportunity to crack and grind the bones of 15- 17 years olds. Let's not exxagerate to prove your point or throw out ridiculous opinions.

As for Moon's experience in the CFL it was part of the development ground that he pursued to attain his status in the NFL. No different than Glover or Warner or Delhomme heading to NFLE which this board loves to put down as the league for scrubs and nobodys.

There have been many good players who have found their way to the CFL and also used that time wisely to figure out how to play football. The NFL training camp isn't the only path to an NFL team some players take more time.

I don't think it's wise to use someone's past in another league to put down his accomplishments in the NFL. He's beaten some very credible NFL teams and NFL Pro Bowl defenders.

The truth about Moon is he was a very good football player, and there's probably not a single person in the league who has suited up against Moon who has said that he didn't belong there on the field.

He was an exceptionally good black QB in a league that has traditionally had trouble developing even decent QB's of any colour.

[Danny White]

Originally Posted by ravidubey

IMHO Warren Moon is a no-brainer for the HOF. 5 straight Grey Cups in Canada (you joke, but that's not easy for anyone to do)

I didn't know he played hockey as well! Wow, that is an accomplishment!