2013 Nba Offseason Thread

Discussion in 'Sports Zone' started by MC KAos, Jun 22, 2013.


    ABQCOWBOY Moderator Staff Member

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    Metta World Peace signs with the Knicks. 1.7 per year. He will still get his 7.7 from the Lakers but it will not be counted against the cap. Good sign by the Knicks IMO.
  2. MC KAos

    MC KAos Well-Known Member

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    Free agency is pretty dried up now. Oden is interesting, and who knows what happens with Jennings, but other than that it's looking pretty set for now

    ABQCOWBOY Moderator Staff Member

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    Man, if you could get anything, at all, out of Oden he would be worth it I think.

    Problem is you just don't know if you will get 60 games, 20 games or a season on the DL.
  4. Dash28

    Dash28 Felis silvestris catus

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    Wasn't meant as an insult, just making a suggestion. It's ok though, la will be fine in the future IMO.

    I'm not waving any flag, try again.
  5. MC KAos

    MC KAos Well-Known Member

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    And I'm still waiting for a coherent argument as to how my original statement that the lakers should bottom out rather than be mediocre again is wrong. Of course they'll be fine in the future, but when you say the future that could be any time period past this season. I'm of the opinion that the lakers would be best served to become competitive again within 2 years by getting a good piece out of this upcoming draft and making sure Kobe is 100% in 2014
  6. MC KAos

    MC KAos Well-Known Member

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    He is the ultimate enigma at the moment
  7. bounce

    bounce Well-Known Member

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    But so low-risk, high-reward that you HAVE to take a chance on him if he's available. I think the Spurs are his best bet for a few reasons. First, there are no expectations of him to come in and contribute. Pop is a master at limiting minutes, and not rushing rookies (which, you almost have to consider Oden at this point). He can play behind Duncan and have TD mentor him for the next two years, until Timmy hangs it up. If/when he's ready in two years, he's playing beside a still solid PG in Tony and a likely star in Kawhi. Plus, they just hired Boylen, who's the big man whisperer for what he did with Hibbert.

    If he's not ready, and his body flames out, you didn't risk much financially, and you didn't mortgage the future on him.

    If he goes to Dallas, Dirk is on the same time-frame as Timmy, with no real future prospects on that team.

    ABQCOWBOY Moderator Staff Member

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    They could actually do both MC. I mean, it would probably be better to just flat line because that would allow them to position themselves better for Wiggins. They could easily trade Gasol and get other high picks for him as well. With the cap, they could probably bring in some average guys who would give them an average season. I am actually for trading Gasol but either way, it doesn't matter. The Lakers are better off taking it down to the metal and build from the frame up IMO but they don't have to do that. They could try and put out a middle of the road team, which would be pretty easy. The NBA is not exactly loaded with great teams right now, IMO. You don't have to be that good to be average in today's NBA IMO.
  9. jterrell

    jterrell Penguinite

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    rofl... no and no.

    the Lakers were down last year.
    the chances of them being back anytime soon is hilariously low.
    stop listening to nonsense about landing lebron or carmelo because that isn't happening.

    kobe eats 30+m in cap space next year with his hold. gasol eats a huge chunk as well until he signs elsewhere or his rights are abandoned.
    lakers are in a very bad way. they have a terrible front office team now as compared to basically anytime in their history.
  10. jterrell

    jterrell Penguinite

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    Neither of you are in the realm of reality for the Lakers.

    Teams are no longer sitting flush with cap space. Only like 3 teams have real meaningful cap space right now.
    So you can not trade those guys off for just picks. You have to take back salary.
    And bad teams (i.e. those with cap space) don't want Gasol or Nash.

    LA is too good to be in the high lottery but too bad to be a threat to anyone.
    They are in a real bad way.
    Climbing out is possible but it wont be quick.

    They'd need Kobe to resign for a reasonable amount, say 12m (good luck with that).
    Need a resurgance of play and health from Nash.
    Need to draft really well next year(maybe a marcus smart).

    Maybe you can move Nash to Canada for something.
    Maybe you can get Gasol off to a contender for younger asssets.

    But the biggest thing is the franchise has to start thinking again.
    Fire D'Antoni and hire a real NBA Coach.
    Get some assets in place so you can make moves.
    Have a team a free agent wants to come to for actual basketball reasons.

    ABQCOWBOY Moderator Staff Member

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    The Lakers made the playoffs last year. For most teams, that would not be considered a down year but for the Lakers, it was so I can agree with you on this one point.

    However, the only nonsense I am hearing is you with this endless procession of diatribe.

    We have been over this several times. Kobe is done after this season. Gasol could easily be traded this year if the Lakers chose to do so. If they don't, then it's still no big deal because after this year, his contract is up too.

    Lakers are in great shape with the cap, after this upcoming season and you know it JT. You want to contend they are not, that's fine but your only convincing yourself at this point. Basically, your wrong but it's up to you to accept that or not.

    Now that the Lakers have amnestied MWP, their number is $77.8 million payroll. They are within $6M of the $71.9M tax threshold. If the Lakers wanted to get under the threshold, they could simply dumping Blake’s expiring $4M deal and Hill’s $3.8M by the mid-season trade deadline. That would do it. That would set the Lakers back to zero and get them out from under the repeat penalty for luxary tax over a consecutive three year period.

    They could always offer Bryant and or Gasol a one year deal for much less money in 2014. If they don't take it, then that would leave the Lakers at well over 50M under the cap. That's enough to sign a few Max Deals and still have plenty of cap to fill out a roster.

    Either way, the Lakers would not exceed the threshold. If they avoid exceeding the threshold for another year, they can then be free to exceed it for an additional three years with no penalty at all, which would allow them to be even more flexible with FA signings and future contracts. There is no question, the Lakers are the most profitable NBA Franchise and have the resources to put together very lucrative contracts for any FA they want to go after.

    In 2015, if Kobe and/or Pau want to stay, let’s say they agree to three-year deals totaling $25M annually as Nash’s $9.7 million cycles off, that would pump the payroll to about 95M. That's roughly 20M over the cap. That would cost the Lakers about 45M in taxes, which would bring the total expenditure to 135M. Sounds like a lot but the Lakers would get 280M off the Time Warner deal so the the Lakers would still be very, very profitable. Even with the taxes, they would still clear in the area of 150M after all penalties. If the Lakers can win a championship, the revenues associated with that would pay the penalties off and more.

    So, subtracting 30% for revenue sharing ($44M) and a generous $30M for all other expenses that leaves a $71M profit with a refurbished roster including two max free agents (the Lakers hope), Kobe (they hope) and Pau (ditto).

    The Lakers are far from screwed but if it makes you feel better to believe this, go ahead.

    I'm not saying the Lakers will get LeBron or whomever else is out there but I am saying that if they don't, it won't be because of financial limitations. Anybody who buys into that is either not paying attention or is just blowing smoke.

    Which are you?
  12. DFWJC

    DFWJC Well-Known Member

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    Given the circumstances, I think Dallas has put together a fairly complementary team this offseason

    They added:
    Monta Ellis (SG/PG)
    Jose Calderon (PG)
    Sam Dalembert (C)
    Wayne Ellington (SG)
    Devin Harris probably (PG/SG)
    Gal Mekel (G)

    Will probably retain:
    Dirk Nowizki (PF)
    Shawn Marion (SF)
    Vince Carter (SF/SG)
    Brandon Wright (PF/C)
    Jae Crowder (SF/SG)
    Bernard James (C)

    Shane Larkin (PG)
    Ricky Ledo (SG)

    In any case. Those pieces fit very well together on paper.

    Calderon (grt shooter, few turnovers, grt at pick and roll)
    Ellis (fast penetrator/ very good scorer)
    Marion (strong all around SF and surpreme defender))
    Nowitzki (it's Dirk)
    Dalembert (strong rebounder, shot blocker)

    They are also still in talks with Greg Oden's agent, though I'm not sure how the Dalembert signing affects it.

    Then with what now looks like a decent bench too for Rick Carlisle to mix and match for certain situations. Harris, Carter, Ellington, Wright, etc...

    Not great but not terrible either.
  13. jterrell

    jterrell Penguinite

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    You have so little understanding of cap charges and overall cap mgmt that this is a difficult conversation to even hold.
    But let's start with the basics of why you are wrong about every point above.

    Kobe is not DONE after this season. His contract ends and he immediately becomes a CAP HOLD for 105% of his previous salary. 30.45m x1.05 is CAP HOLD. To remove this cap hold the Lakers have to either relinquish all rights including Bird right to Kobe or have him sign a new contract. He CAN NOT sign a new contract until FA opens.
    Gasol is in the same EXACT boat.. 19.3m x 1.05 - CAP HOLD.

    CAP HOLDs count AGAINST The CAP. 9.7m for Nash plus those 2 HOLDS means no max room AT ALL. So while talk of LeBron "financially" being able is theoretical it isn't realistic. AS the team would HAVE to DUMP right to one of those two guys and likely has to be Kobe as there are other cap holds for empty roster spots and others. While they are CAP HOLDS (along with other CAP Holds) LA has NO cap space.

    But wait, wait they'll sign for 25m over 3 years.
    No, they won't.
    Just ask Kobe.

    "I'm not taking any (pay cut) at all - that's the negotiation that you have to have," Kobe Bryant told Lakers Nation in an exclusive interview at his Kobe Basketball Academy on Wednesday. "For me to sit here and say, ‘Oh yeah, I'm just going to take a huge pay cut. Nah, I'm going to try to get as much as I possibly can."

    Teams that strip down to have cap space have to juggle the impact of the the stripped down roster. Once you go back over the cap you have little leeway.
    LAL is in a bad way man. The sooner you realize this the better off you will be.

    You keep bringing up how much money the team makes. No one but you cares. They weren't willing to keep MWP this year and him leaving saves them nothing but some luxury taxes. They are not trying to spend oodles of money.
    But even if they wanted to follow the Nets/Knicks method they don't have the means to do so. The Knicks have used Birds rights to overpay guys. The Nets have used bad contracts, bird rights and draft choices to collect even worse contracts.

    Real world scenarios.
    They get Kobe to agree to take 3 years and 55m. This is a substantial pay cut but probably about what the market would bear for him. 18m year 1 cost.
    They re-sign Gasol to 2 years 24m. Again this a fair market amount with a small hometown discount. 12m yr 1 cost.
    You plug that 30m in with 10 for Nash. You are at 40m.
    You add 5m for Jordan Hill.
    2m for Sacre and Nick Young.
    Plus 500k for every empty roster spot up to 15.
    Thats 50m or so in cap used.
    That's enough to arguably chase an 18m max guy.
    It isn't enough to chase these supermax guys IF they even become available.

    BECAUSE the real issue with LeBron is he can make 22m next year IF he opts out.
    He actually is under contract and could just stay and make 22m for a team he won a couple titles with by DOING NOTHING.
    Like DH did.

    The Lakers gambled that they'd get DH on a long-term deal. They failed miserably in that plan.
    Now they are facing the cost of that failure. And it is going to cost them big time.
    They have lost the 2013, 2015, 2017 1st round picks (some are protected conditionally (but that is its own penalty because you can't trade any future picks now). They lost 2013, 2014, 2015 3nd round picks.

    IF they get Kobe resigned to a cheaper deal, add some quality youth and hit a few good mid-level signings they can start to climb back.
    BUT it isn't a quick fix and all the nonsense about adding superstars are childish theories that do no work in the real world.
  14. jterrell

    jterrell Penguinite

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    FWIW, IF the Lakers want to rebuild quickly they should move Kobe and Gasol to contenders this year.
    They can take back contracts of young players and draft picks. Moving these guys won't be easy but could happen in a DH type 4 team trade.

    The Mavs are a solid playoff team who will try to lure a couple more mid-level free agents next year.
    The roster does seem to work but only if they get enough defense/rebounding out of the Center position.

    The thing to watch is trades for Gortat or Asik in season.

    ABQCOWBOY Moderator Staff Member

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    So basically, what you are saying here is that the Lakers would have to let him walk outright and he would then become an FA, which they could easily do if they wanted to in order to free up cap. Doesn't sound all that complicated to me. They only carry over salary if they chose to do so and that only happens until the start of FA, which when the team would start negotiations with any prospective FA's in any case. Do you really think that the stuff you are posting is all that hard to understand?

    As for Gasol, same deal but that only applies if they keep him and do not trade him, which is far from a given.

    You kind of don't get it I think. The entire idea is to dump both of those players if they do not resign a contract at a more reasonable rate. Where is the problem here? Again, that's only a problem until FA starts.

    They could do that. They could sign, as I said earlier, a 1 year deal and resign for a 25m deal to follow on or they could structure a low ball deal in the 1st year and sign for bigger money in subsequent years. They could absolutely do that because the Lakers could get under the cap this year and that would avoid all sorts of penalties which would then allow them to expand contract terms in future. They could absolutely do that and you know this but instead, we are playing this game of, throw all kinds of crap up that doesn't really prevent anybody from signing with the Lakers. OK.

    Kobe can say whatever he wants but the bottom line is that he will have to take a pay cut because the Lakers are not going to resign him for the same money and nobody else is going to sign him for that either. The CBA won't allow for that. So yeah, Kobe can say whatever he wants but that doesn't make it anything other then Kobe saying what he wants to say.

    Yeah, so? The Lakers are going to be 50 million plus under the cap. The Lakers are not going to be in a bad way. That's just some stuff you say but it's not true. All the Lakers have to do is get under the cap and stay under it for two consecutive years and then they are fine.

    It saves them 15 million in Luxury taxes and 7.7 against the cap. Plus, the guy was not a great fit for the Lakers offense. MWP was a no brainer but whatever. The Nets and the Knicks have nothing to do with anything. That's more crap against the wall to try and distract I guess.

    More like Your World Scenarios. The Lakers are not going to make these moves. This is stuff you have in your head that are not substantiated. Show me where the Lakers have said they would make these moves. Show me where the Lakers have even said they would keep either of these guys next year.

    Because of the 1st two things you say, the rest of this is not worth the time you took to type it. That is not what the Lakers intend to do.

    Again, I specifically said that I was not saying the Lakers would get James. I said that if they didn't get him, it would not be because of finances. You don't pay attention very well. Maybe the reason you find it so hard to have conversations is because you continuously make up the other side of the story as you go, instead of actually paying attention to what is being said to you.

    DH is done and gone. That has nothing to do with the Laker's future plans. The Lakers have not been a team that really use the draft much anyway. Unless you have a top 10 pick in the NBA, and sometimes not even then, it's not going to make much of a difference for the Lakers. That's not how they operate. Would it be nice to have those picks? Yeah, but it's not the end of the world and it's certainly not going to "Cost Big Time."

    Struggling at the bottom is not the plan. I know you want it to be but it's not going to happen.

    ABQCOWBOY Moderator Staff Member

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    They can't move Kobe because he may not even be able to play this year. Nobody is going to take that contract so no, that's not what they should do because they can't find a team in the NBA stupid enough to make that deal.

    As for Gasol, well, only what I have been telling you for like 4 months but I suppose it's different if you say. OK.
  17. jterrell

    jterrell Penguinite

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    If the Lakers don't have Kobe and Gasol they will have cap space.
    But they'd also be a bottom 5 team in the NBA that no decent FA will want to sign for.
    THAT is the crux of the problem.
    The Lakers have ZERO true assets.
    No young studs, no great contract values, no great coach.

    With the way the cap works you can't keep rights then sign guys later.
    You have to account for all the dollars to sign a free agent. It makes the star chase VERY difficult.

    The Lakers have to either gamble on a free agent plan or they have to reload via asset building.
    I understand these things because Dallas has been doing it for 3 years now.

    Right now the Clippers are the ones getting the great assets and free agent deals.
    The Lakers are signing pure trash like Chris Kaman who couldn't even get on the court for the center desperate Mavs last year.

    I fully understand the Lakers are not tanking. Not with Kobe and Gasol on the roster. But they SHOULD be.
    They won't have their own draft pick in 2015 so when they are inevitably terrible then it wont help.

    I panned the Lakers moves last off-season because I saw this coming. It is really silly to continue arguing with me as what I say keeps playing itself out.
  18. jterrell

    jterrell Penguinite

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    Apparently it is because you are wrong here. The Cap amount is immediate. It counts UNTIL you remove a players rights not just at the start of FA period.

    Yes, it does. Difference now is Gasol is the only big man on the Lakers who can play at all. He is FAR more valuable to the Lakers now then he was before DH left.
    You seem to believe the Lakers can just jettison these players who won titles in LA and amazingly reload around who Jordan Hill? Get real dude.

    No! The problem is now, then, forever. Without those guys you have no talent to play with for any FA. With those guys you have no cap space. Only way out would be an agreement on a far reduced rate., Except there's no indication that is coming and in fact Kobe says it isn't for him

    Learn the cap rules my man. The new CBA averages salary across the life of the contract.Balloon style is done. See Jeremy Lin and Omer Asik's deals in Houston. This stuff I keep throwing out is called CBA details. You keep ignoring basic things like the CBA and rules for operating. Too much fan boy Laker talk.

    Kobe can sign with any team in the league for the salary he was at last season under the CBA provided they have cap space to do so. Is that likely? Of course not. But possible? Certainly that they'd pay him very well.

    No, they are not going to be 50m under the cap. Not even close to that. The fact you do not understand this just underscores why you need to study actual cap math. The Lakers have OTHER players ALL with holds. Basically EVERY player who plays this year will have a HOLD of some kind. To create 50m in cap space they'd have to release rights to EVERYONE but Nash and any minimum salary players. And they couldn't then use Bird rights for those same players to exceed the cap. [/quote]

    I told you last year the Lakers were going to be in a bad way. They are. Want to deny they aren't? Go ahead but it is a bald-faced lie. They have the 10th or so best talent in the West and no cap room. They are signing bums. That's the definition of bad.

    The cap space is pointless because they are well over the cap. So it really saves them 15m in actual cash. But you swear pure cash isn't an issue at ALL. MWP would be a top 5 player for the Lakers. So sell that fit nonsense to someone else.

    Lumping this hilarious stuff together. You are the one not listening or reading actual facts. You keep re-writing the CBA and pretending the magical unicorn will help the Lakers. But there is no fairy dust. Keep Kobe and Gasol or not the Lakers are in a bad spot. THAT IS THE CRUX OF THE ISSUE. ATL had TONS of cap space this year. It doesn't matter if you dont have a team. No NBA player wants to start his own team. They want to go join other good players. That's WHY DH LEFT LA.

    ROFL. The Lakers are gonna have top 10 picks soon. Or well the teams they traded them too will. I understand the draft's lack of talent. Dallas hasn't drafted anyone either. That works when you are a top 10 team int he league. Not so much when you are not. It also doesn't work well under this new CBA where rookie contracts are far more valuable.
    DH has been gone a month. Plan A was for him to resign and turn the team over to him. That didn't happen. He wanted assurances the team would jettison Kobe and he wanted a new coach.

    Yea because their PLAN has worked well the past 18 months. Good luck holding onto that homie.

    ABQCOWBOY Moderator Staff Member

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    What a bunch of Hooey. If the Lakers let Kobe and Pau go, then they will have even more cap available to work with and will be able to offer even more to prospective FAs. That will not effect the FAs that the Lakers can bring in. That doesn't wash at all.

    The Clippers are signing people now because they had cap available but soon they will not have cap available to spend like that and FAs will not be going to the Clippers any longer.

    The Lakers are signing guys like Kaman because he's cheap and willing to sign a 1 yr. deal. That kinda plays into that whole cutting cap in order to position yourself for FA market in 2014. I'm the one that's supposed to not be able to grasp the fundamentals of the cap remember?

    However, in the 30 games he did play for Dallas last year, he averaged 1717.2 PPG, shot 48% from the field, 78% from the stripe and averaged 9.4 rebounds a game.

    ABQCOWBOY Moderator Staff Member

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