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Discussion in 'Fan Zone' started by SHAMSzy, Aug 23, 2013.

  1. The Quest for Six

    The Quest for Six Well-Known Member

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    I don't think anyone would argue Dallas doesn't have a lot of talent, but that there's been a systemic problem with this team now for years, other than Ware and Smith, the offensive and defensive line are severely void of top talent, and those are two important areas of a football team if you want to consistently win divisions and in the playoffs...
  2. DFWJC

    DFWJC Well-Known Member Zone Supporter

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    This.

    I get sick of people talking about talent and really meaning "skill" postion talent.
    This is not fantasy football or 7 on 7.
    The oline is largest unit on the team and they for sure are not overly talented.

    Still, this probably is the most overall talent that Dallas had since 2007, assuming good health.
  3. noshame

    noshame Who wouldn't follow me? Zone Supporter

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    Attitude...leadership.....nastiness...all have been missing for a while. All the talent in the world won't win without it.
  4. coult44

    coult44 Well-Known Member

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    Yep, and it all comes down to two positions on if this team contends and wins, or is 8-8 again and underachieving. THE OFFENSIVE LINE and SAFETY....Ironic isn't it???
  5. coult44

    coult44 Well-Known Member

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    The leadership is there now I believe. Can the leaders will this OL to block is the question?
  6. Idgit

    Idgit Ice up, son. Ice up! Staff Member

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    Leadership, attitude, nastiness, and a positive turnover differential. Give me these things, and we'll have a winner in Dallas. And you can keep the attitude, leadership, and the nastiness because those are just words used to describe teams that win the turnover battle by a wide enough margin.
  7. ScipioCowboy

    ScipioCowboy More than meets the eye. Zone Supporter

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    It's like raaaaaain on your wedding day....
  8. Gameover

    Gameover Well-Known Member

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    Just like in the NBA, you go as far as your stars take you.

    I don't believe the Ravens or Giants were stacked football teams(or the 95 Cowboys for that matter) 1-53.They won because their stars manned up.

    I've always blamed Romo for this teams failures, I'm starting to think that it may be Garrett who is the problem.
  9. BanditHiro

    BanditHiro Well-Known Member

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    combination of crappy coaching, weak trenches, and overall unluckiness (seriously even if we beat the Redskins we wouldn't have done much in the playoffs considering are team was so depleted and they would continue to get run over on defense)...if we can get a few breaks this season we have as good a chance as any.
  10. Hoofbite

    Hoofbite Well-Known Member

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    I think they need to start by taking the safety position serious.

    They've done nothing but go after projects for the last however many years.
    coult44 likes this.
  11. Idgit

    Idgit Ice up, son. Ice up! Staff Member

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    At S? Yeah, I'm surprised they haven't been more aggressive there, although I like our current projects quite a bit. But, when you've got two holes to fill, it's tough to do it successfully with street FAs and mid-rounders.

    At OL, we've been pretty serious about filling those spots with premium resources recently, and I think we're starting to see that payoff, finally.
  12. NickZepp

    NickZepp Well-Known Member

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    It comes down to line play in the end. We have good skill players. Excellent TEs and LBs. Line play is probably not top tier talentwise. But I do like how the starting offensive line in it's limited action has looked so far. Defensive line is still a bit of a question mark overall. Just don't know enough about how the interior will play in this new system.
  13. NickZepp

    NickZepp Well-Known Member

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    Roy Williams and Darren Woodson are really the last good safeties we've had. We really haven't had any good safeties since then. Church looked promising before the injury but I doubt he's Roy Williams or even close to Darren Woodson good.
  14. NickZepp

    NickZepp Well-Known Member

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    I disagree for last year. Our biggest problem last year was having most of our defense out all year and having key injuries on offense throughout the year. Honestly last year was a great year considering those injuries and an extremely tough schedule. I honestly don't think we were that badly coached last year. I can see it in other years but not last year.
  15. Idgit

    Idgit Ice up, son. Ice up! Staff Member

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    Yeah, I'm a fan of Barry Church, but he had me reaching for my antacids in that MIA game where he was taking the wrong angles and going for kill shots instead of just tackling proper. Not worried overall, but I'd feel better if we had more stories about his teammates raving at the job he's done overcoming the achilles.
  16. percyhoward

    percyhoward Research Tool

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    This guy might want to check his math.
  17. coult44

    coult44 Well-Known Member

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    Ever since Woody left. I know I'm becoming more and more redundant about how important that position is. But imagine a QB not having the ability to do something as simple as to throw a ten yard out route, or as easy as a 30 yard go route with broken coverage. That's been the quality of our safeties. We've had guys back there that haven't been able to make the easy three yard adjustments to stop the run, or the less difficult decision to cover the top side of a double team. You can't go cheap everywhere. I'd trade every TE, CB, WR, RB,and LB, and sorry safety (except for the obvious guys) we've drafted in the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th rounds for one quality safety. Why haven't we done that? We've had the chance to draft soooo many good safeties over the past few years. Instead we've taken players like Martellus Bennet, Anthony Fasano, Tashard Choice, Felix Jones, Isiah Stanback Barbie Carpenter, Skylar Green, Nick Folk, Jason WIlliams, Victor Butler, Deangelo Smith, Jamar Wall, Josh Thomas, Kyle Wilbur, Matt Johnson, AOA, James Hanna, Danny Coal, Gavin Escobar, BW Webb, etc.etc.etc. etc. AND NOT DRAFTED ONE GOOD SAFETY, who can stay on the field and lead the defense...What's wrong with this picture?
  18. Hoofbite

    Hoofbite Well-Known Member

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    They've gotten a good start to filling the OL holes but I'm not content. A little over 2 years ago Dallas had done nothing other than sign Free (which was a move I liked at the time, not going to lie.). I don't know if I would consider 2 promising players in the span of 3 offseasons all that serious when the entire line has been a wreck. Last year they were serious about fixing the DB position and they traded away future picks and signed a free agent who's contract basically doubles the contracts of the OL they picked up last year.

    That's getting serious about addressing a need.

    The Titans drafted Warmack and signed Andy Levitre in one offseason. That's getting serious. Dallas is only getting as serious as they have to. They had nothing at LT and so they had to draft Tyron. The rest of the line went to hell and they had nothing to the right of Tyron so they had to draft Frederick. Jerry called him the "Last of the Mohicans" not because they anticipated drafting him that high when the day started but because they knew damn well that they couldn't afford to leave the draft empty handed. It would have been borderline insane for them not to make those moves considering the condition of the line. It would have been indefensible. There wouldn't have been anything anyone could have said to rationalize them not picking Tyron and not allocating high picks to the OL this year.

    I think they completely missed the boat last year. They could have passed on the two castoffs they ended up signing and went after Grubbs. The cap consequence over the life of the contract is really, really small. Almost infuriatingly small.

    If Dallas would have went after Grubbs instead, they would have incurred an extra $1.3M in cap hits over 2012 and 2013. That's 600K/year for a Pro Bowl player and they decided on two guys who are struggling to even maintain their starting roles. That doesn't even include renegotiating anything (something I don't care for anyway), it's just as the contracts are written.

    Grubbs got $36M with $7.2M as a base in the final year. Livings got $18.75M with a base of $4.75M in the final year. Bernie's contract is worth $11.5M. Subtract the final year base from Grubbs and Livings, giving $28.8M and $14M respectively. Add Bernie's 4 year deal to Livings reduced number, giving a total of $25.5M. For 4 years of service from Ben Grubbs, Dallas would have incurred $28.8M in cap charges. For 4 years of service (and it's unlikely they get that at all) for the other two, Dallas would incur $25.5M in cap charges. This is after all the dead money is spoken for when you cut those guys after the 4th season. We've only deducted that base so this is the difference when it's all said and done.

    The difference between a Pro Bowl OG and two guys who struggle to remain starters and even make the roster a season later is $3.3M, or $825K per season. If they were serious, they don't go after 2 scrubs when they could have gotten a Pro Bowler for a pittance more. As far as I am concerned, they're doing nothing more than making the obvious move which won't really earn praise from me. I'm relieved but not encouraged because I'll need to see the team make a continuous effort moving forward and I'm almost certain that they'll bypass on the OL in favor of an unnecessary skill position when put to the test. They've been doing that for years on end and only when all the skill positions have been handsomely addressed have they been willing to throw a bone to the OL.

    Has the team made some progress from their completely ignorant position 3 years ago? Sure. Some, I guess. I'm not sure how anyone could say that their philosophy has changed though because the need for OL was so blatantly apparent that you can't really say they weren't just making the obvious, sane move. I guess it's better than nothing but I'm not going to hand out ribbons for making the only logical choice after pigeonholing yourself for so long.

    The Grubbs situation is just one reason why I don't think the team is really all that concerned with fixing the OL. You basically straight swap two guys who will likely be out of the league in 2-3 years for a guy who has been an elite player at his position for a few seasons and has many seasons ahead of him.

    It's really kind of odd the way the team has chosen which aspects of the team to neglect over the past 6-7 years. They place such an emphasis on fielding multiple receiving threats but don't really think a complete secondary with competent safeties is all that important to stop the opposition who may be fielding an equally potent receiving corp. They've placed such an emphasis on rushing the passer, even renting a guy out at a ridiculous cap rate for 2 seasons but don't really think it's all that important to stop the opposition from beating the hell out of their QB.

    So what we've seen is a team that has some very talented players at key positions but also had glaring weaknesses at certain positional groups. Unfortunately a weakness at safety will result in a lot of big plays given up and a weakness on the OL will allow your QB to suffer broken bones ever season. It's just quite odd, IMO.
  19. Idgit

    Idgit Ice up, son. Ice up! Staff Member

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    We're never going to agree on spending premium FA dollars on an OG, but I do get what you're saying. The two first-round picks, the overhaul of every starting position, including the coaching staff, the big contract for free, and even the addition of Leary (who I think has shown good things) convinces me they've been serious about it. But, I'll agree they were a lot more serious about fixing the defensive secondary. Problem was, there's not enough cap space available to fix everything and they had to set priorities.

    Neither OG flier they took last year has paid off, though injuries have a lot to do with both of those cases. But I'm not going to fault a team with limited resources for spending the money on the harder positions to fill and trying to develop talent where they thought they could and thought they had to. They've decided its easier to win by being (temporarily, at least) solid along the OL and adding options in the passing game. It's not really a bad bet if you have to be exposed someplace. They have added the coaching resources to develop players in both trenches, and they seem to have a closed loop between what coaches want and what the scouts can find. I do think that if the cap weren't an option we'd have signed Brian Waters a few weeks back.
  20. Hoofbite

    Hoofbite Well-Known Member

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    May not but you fault them for even taking 2 fliers in the first place when a Pro Bowl lock costs the same. It's not about spending more and more and more, it's about spending the money you have wisely. Nobody can say a backup from Carolina (who was bringing and injury with him in the first place) who was allowed to walk right out the door and a guy who Cincy couldn't wait to get rid of is a better alternative than one of the best OGs in football.

    Callahan does look to have been getting some results but as I have said every time people mention how they've gone after coaching to improve the OL, they had Hudson Houck who was also supposed to be one of the best OL coaches in the game.

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