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An informal survey: Is Romo closer to Aikman or to White?

Discussion in 'Fan Zone' started by GimmeTheBall!, Feb 25, 2013.

  1. KJJ

    KJJ You Have an Axe to Grind

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    Dude, Romo has been in 7 elimination games which include 3 season finales and 4 playoff games. I explained in explicit detail weeks in ago what an "elimination game" is and you still don't get it. :rolleyes: If you can't accept the FACT that those 3 season finales were ELIMINATION GAMES that's your problem. I gave you at least 6 links with people who get paid to talk football who used the term "elimination games" referring to Romo's 1-6 record but you continue to spin it's something that I'm making up. :facepalm: I don't run from answering anything you're just looking to argue.

    The reason you're not getting any hits when when you google "elimination games" is because you refuse to accept that playoff games are elimination games.

    Beuerlein started and played the full game in the win vs Chicago in the 91 playoffs. He started against Detroit the following week and was yanked due to ineffective play. I credit Beuerlein with the loss in that game because the Cowboys were behind when Aikman took over. The only other road playoff games Aikman played in during the Cowboys SB run from 92 to 95 were both in SF in the 92 and 94 NFC title games where Aikman finished 1-1. The other road playoff losses came when the Cowboys and Aikman were on the way down.
  2. KJJ

    KJJ You Have an Axe to Grind

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    Let's not reduce this discussion to an Aikman/Alex Smith comparison. Comparing Aikman's numbers with other QB's is always going to be misleading. As for the topic Aikman was a "great" QB and Romo is a "very good" QB who struggles when it's down to do or die. Speculating on how Romo would have done with Aikman's teams and how Aikman would have done with Romo's teams is a waste of time.

    Romo never played on a Cowboys team worse than the ones Aikman played on in 89 and 90. Romo would have ended up in a body bag on those teams. Not trying to knock his toughness but not many QB's could have held up to the punishment Aikman took those 2 seasons and maintained their confidence.
  3. mahoneybill

    mahoneybill Active Member

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    Agree.

    He's having to make up for the deficiencies around him, and presses to do that resulting in int's at the wrong time.....
  4. gbrittain

    gbrittain Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it is fair at all to say Troy was done in 1996 or 1997. Dallas did win a Super Bowl in 1995. Clearly the team was on the decline and Troy went as the team went.

    Just as it is an unknown quantity to say Romo could win a Super Bowl with the kind of talent Troy played with, it is also a hypothetical to say Troy could win with lesser talent because he never did. He won with talent that is considered to be among one of the greatest teams ever assembled. Not to say he could not, but he certainly never did.

    I still contend that you cannot compare the situation Troy was in to the one Tony is in. In the first 3 playoff games Troy started, the defense forced 15 turnovers (2, 4, and 9) and if you look at his next two Super Bowl victory runs it looks like this in forced turnovers (4, 1, 3, 1, 2, 3). Tell me that does not change the mindset of a QB. Alex Smith was nothing more than a bust in 49er land, then came a really good coach and a dominant defense. Next thing you know Alex Smith is in the NFC Championship game and now valuable enough to be traded for a high 2nd round pick plus future considerations. This is not meant to compare Troy to Alex FYI, but noting the impact of a dominant defense that forces turnovers.

    I think we would both agree Troy is a deserving HOFer and at this point Tony is not. I do disagree with you that Troy would have won a Super Bowl with this version of the Cowboys. I also firmly believe I like my chances of winning a Super Bowl with the 90s Cowboys and Tony over Troy and the current version Cowboy team.
  5. GimmeTheBall!

    GimmeTheBall! Junior College Transfer

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    Well, maybe closer to Bernie Kosar? Not Buerlein, because Buerlein actually won playoff games, didn't he?
  6. KJJ

    KJJ You Have an Axe to Grind

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    I never said Troy was "done" in 96 I said he and the team were on the way down. Aikman was still very good but he was having health issues and his numbers started to slowly decline in 96. The 96 season was the last time Aikman completed over 60% of his passes. He had 13 int's in 96 and only 12 TD passes. He hadn't had more int's than TD's since his rookie year. His passer rating went from 93.1 in 95 to 80.1 in 96. Obviously Aikman had much better teams than Romo but the year (07) Romo had a team that was comparable to some of the teams Aikman had his game fell apart at the most critical stage of the season and it contributed to that team collapsing.

    The troubling issue with Romo has always been handling big game pressure and making key throws when it's down to do or die. For the Cowboys to win those 3 SB's under Aikman Troy had to make some big plays and avoid turnovers. Romo can't avoid turning the ball over when it gets down to make or break he has 12 turnovers in his 6 elimination game losses. Until he makes a big throw in a critical moment in a do or die game it's complete fantasy to say he could have won SB's with those 90's teams. If you're unable to point to ONE throw in a tight elimination game that came at a very critical stage that helped lead the Cowboys to a big win then it's going to be hard to convince any realist that Romo could have won a SB's with those teams.

    If you give Romo a strong running game, a solid defensive effort and a lead then he can play steady like he did vs Philly in the 09 playoffs his only elimination game win. He's a very good QB through most of the regular season but he's just not the same QB when it's all on the line and he's forced to have to make plays. He starts to press and the turnovers start coming. Of Aikman's 3 SB wins 2 of those wins were come from behind wins. Granted you can't compare the situation Aikman was in from 92 to 95 to the situation Romo is in but Troy was great in big games and made the big throws like he did to Harper in the 92 NFC title game. SF had just scored to get within 4 points. Their crowd was in a frenzy and the momentum had clearly shifted.

    Put Romo behind center in that situation with just over 4 minutes to play and it would scare the hell out of most Cowboy fans. He has not shown he can come through in those situations when it's all on the line especially on the road in a hostile environment. I wouldn't be arguing his ability to win championships with the teams Aikman had if he wasn't so turnover prone in big games. He simply has not shown he can handle big game pressure the moments have been too big for him and it's caused him to fold. I like Romo but until he makes that one big throw in a tight do or die game that helps lead the Cowboys to a win no one will ever convince me that he could have won championships on those 90's teams. To win a championship a QB has to have their best stuff come January/Feb they can't have more turnovers than TD's.
  7. KJJ

    KJJ You Have an Axe to Grind

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    I never said Troy could have won a SB with "this version" of the Cowboys. :rolleyes: I said he could have won a SB with the 07 version that was 12-1 at one point and was clearly the best team in the NFC entering December. None of Troy's 90's teams ever reached 12-1. That 07 team was averaging around 32 points a game for the first 12 weeks of that season none of Aikman's 90's teams ever averaged that many points.
  8. gbrittain

    gbrittain Well-Known Member

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    I apologize for not being clear, but I am talking about the version of Cowboys that Romo has played with 2006-2012. I never suspected you were talking about the 2012 version of the Cowboys.
  9. Nation

    Nation Well-Known Member Zone Supporter

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    The Patriots would have outscored Aikman with the 07 team, we had a decent pass defense and pass rush that year but not enough to slow them.
  10. KJJ

    KJJ You Have an Axe to Grind

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    The Pats team that outscored the Cowboys in week 6 of that season would have outscored Aikman had they maintained that same level of play all the way to the SB but they didn't. For the first 11 weeks of the 07 season NE was the greatest team I had ever seen. In weeks 6, 7 and 8 they scored 48, 49 and 52 points. During the first 8 weeks of that season they only scored under 30 points once. They were so dominate it was like watching an NFL team playing college teams. Brady was unstoppable for most of that season on his way to an NFL record 50 TD passes. Starting in week 12 NE started coming back to earth. They struggled against Philly and Baltimore barely squeaking out wins.

    Brady started to cool off he only had 5 TD passes in his final 3 regular season games. NE's passing game started to sputter and their point totals dropped dramatically from earlier in the season. The NE team that entered the playoffs wasn't near the same team we saw for most of that season. Brady had an awful game vs San Diego in the AFC title game tossing 3 ints. NE and Brady were clearly on the way down and the Giants were on the way up. Had Aikman faced that NE team in the SB he would have beaten them. Aikman defeated 3 future HOF QB's (Favre, Young, Kelly) on his way to his 3 SB victories.
  11. gbrittain

    gbrittain Well-Known Member

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    First come from behind Super Bowl you mention: The Bills scored first in the 92 Super Bowl making it 7-0. Troy played from behind for two drives. On the first drive the Cowboys punted. On the second drive Troy and the Cowboys scored a TD, but major credit goes to Troy for two nice throws (20 yards and a 23 yard TD strike).

    Second come from behind Super Bowl: Aikman played from behind for two drives in the second quarter. In those two drives Aikman led the offense to a punt and an INT. Dallas started the 3rd quarter losing only to have the Dallas D force a turnover and scored making the score 13-13. The next time Dallas got the ball they handed the ball off to Emmitt 6 consecutive times and on the seventh play Troy threw a 3 yard pass to DJ on 2nd and 6, then another hand off to Emmitt for 15 yards and a TD. So to recap Troy led the team to a punt and an INT when playing from behind, the defense tied the game, and Emmitt was responsible for 7 of the 8 plays on the go ahead TD. Troy's contribution was a 3 yard pass to DJ.

    I would contend Romo has made some big throws in elimination games. I think the Crayton throw in the NY game was a big time throw...but unfortunately for Romo he is only 50% of that equation. That would have been a game winner.

    I can understand your doubt. The closest thing in my mind to being a knock on Tony is the 2007 playoff game against NY. That was a good team. He did not play great, but in the end with the game on the line he played well enough to win even though it did not happen. I also happen to think Tony is a better QB now than he was then back in 2007.

    Call me crazy and that's fair, but I would love to see Tony get another crack at a Super Bowl run with a Super Bowl quality team and see what happens.
  12. HoustonFrog

    HoustonFrog Well-Known Member

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    Agree with your last paragraph...however..:)

    The earlier stuff is not even close to reality...Alex Smith

    We need to put everything into context...era guys played, systems they were in, etc. Right now 75 % of QBs in the league would look better than Troy because it is a throwing league. 7 guys were at 4300-5000 yards. The highest passing yards in 1996 was Mark Brunell at 4300. The league was a balanced league of run and pass. You also had defenses where the DBs could still be physical. Troy was great because he was accurate, didn't make mistakes and was clutch in the playoffs and Super Bowls. One of the most accurate QBs out there in a system where timing was key and the ball had to be in the right place. I think he'd succeed now because coordinators would do like Rodgers and have him throw quick and he'd still be accurate and have an arm to complete passes. Not as athletic as Rodgers but he has a skill set they could work with in the passing systems of today. I don't think you can just plug anyone into Troy's heyday and have them be as accurate vs press coverage where DBs could maul WRs.
  13. cowboyvic

    cowboyvic It's Stuck

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    Romo QB a team that went 13 and 3, one year, and 11 and 5 the other. other than that it's been 9 and 7, or worse.this QB has missed the playoffs 4 of the last 5 years. yet it's always somebody else fault. T.O.,Dez, the defense, the O-Line.when is this guy going to be held to account? Jerry should not give this guy a big contract. it's another big mistake.and will kill this team for years to come. this team won't win any championship with Romo at QB.
  14. KJJ

    KJJ You Have an Axe to Grind

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    The 07 team was a SB caliber team put Aikman behind center and that team would have gone all the way. With Aikman's leadership and steady play that team would not have collapsed under him. Troy wouldn't have taken off for Cabo prior to the playoffs. Even as much as Romo and the Cowboys play dropped off entering the playoffs that season they still had a chance to beat the Giants in the final minutes.

    No way do the Cowboys lose that game with Aikman at QB. The Packers would have then had to come to Dallas where Favre had no luck winning and the Cowboys would have gone on to face a NE team in the SB that was on the way down.
  15. Nation

    Nation Well-Known Member Zone Supporter

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    He's had double-digit wins and played in the divisional round of the playoffs in every season he's had a Top 15 scoring defense.
  16. cowboyvic

    cowboyvic It's Stuck

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    Even going back to Eastern Illinois, he was 0-3 in NCAA playoff games. People say, well, in Dallas they always blame the quarterback. Yeah, that's simplistic, but sometimes that's right. And yes, the offensive line was beaten up; yes, he had a guy in his face on that last interception. When you look at that long a track record and he hasn't broken through. Eli Manning has had bad games. Peyton Manning had bad games for a long time trying to break through and win that first Super Bowl. You don't ever see Tony in these situations rising to the occasion. He may have had as good a December as he's ever had. And the lights come on and he's a deer in the headlights. Cowboys will not win anything with Romo. but that won't stop Jerry from making another big mistake by throwing more millions to him. it's doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
  17. KJJ

    KJJ You Have an Axe to Grind

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    The point is Aikman brought the Cowboys from behind in 2 of his 3 SB wins. He also had to play from behind for a short period vs SF in the 92 NFC title game. Once the Cowboys get behind in an elimination game Romo has been awful especially on the road. He begins to press and the mistakes start coming. He's had real issues maintaining his poise in make or break situations. Troy never had issues losing his poise and wasn't prone to ill-timed turnovers. Romo had 2 teams that were SB caliber in 07 and in 09. The 09 team went up to NO and beat a 13-0 Saints team in Dec.

    The 09 team was playing far better entering January than the 07 team was playing 2 years prior. The Cowboys may have been the hottest team entering the playoffs in 09 and it all fell apart in Minn. I'm not blaming Romo for the loss but once again he suffered 3 turnovers in a huge game on the road. Put him in front of a hostile environment on the road in a do or die game and he starts to unravel. I agree that Romo is a better QB now than he was in 07 BUT the same issues with him keep popping up when he's in an elimination game. The same turnover pattern starts up and it begins to snowball. He starts to press and he loses his poise. He's gotten over certain hurdles but this is a hurdle he just can't seem to get over.

    I would love to see Romo get another shot in the playoffs we all would but with the coaching issues and as disorganized as the team is I'm not so sure he ever will. With the issues he has dealing with pressure on the road in do or die games it's going to take great coaching and a great team around him for him to be successful. If he has to do too much he folds.
  18. KJJ

    KJJ You Have an Axe to Grind

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    He's never made the big throw during a critical moment in a tight elimination game that led to a win. The throw to Crayton went incomplete and that was on Crayton but we can only speculate on what would have happened had he made the catch. You claim it would have been a game winner but we don't know that there was too much time left in the game. A lot of debates on Romo deal with speculation but there's no evidence to support most of it.

    There's no evidence that says he could win a SB if you put him on a great team because he's suffered a lot of turnovers with the good playoff teams he's been apart of. He's been unable to raise his level of play and the play of his teammates in big games which is something Aikman could do. I don't care how great a team a QB has they still have to be able to make some big throws in critical situations while avoiding turnovers to win big games.
  19. Nation

    Nation Well-Known Member Zone Supporter

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    The giant hole in your theory is that every quarterback who has ever won a Super Bowl has had to be carried at some point in the postseason run, and has needed either a competent defense or an incompetent division to play in for that QB to make the postseason.

    Peyton Manning finally won the Super Bowl primarily from the Colts Defense ability to stomach his 1TD/5INT first two games of the playoffs.

    Eli Manning won his Super Bowl's in part because his defense was able to apply significant pressure on the quarterback in two NFC Championship games where he was largely ineffective.

    This is a team that had had a (.765) winning percentage when Romo has a +3 TD:INT ration in a game. You will not find a quarterback that has to do more for their team, no matter how hard you try. Brees and Peyton are the posterboy's for winning in spite of a bad defense, and they both clock in at over (.848). When you take those numbers, and you take the fact that he has one of the highest passer ratings in close&late situations, you really lose any credibility in saying Romo is the problem with this team winning.

    The Dallas defense has won a whopping 2 games in spite of Romo, the 06 game at New York and the 07 game at Buffalo. Since then, which is coincidentally when Parcells stopped selecting the majority of our talent, it hasn't happened.

    "Doing the same thing over and over" with Romo as quarterback entails being a postseason contender on the last week of the season in every year he's the starter, even with some horrific other units on the team. I'll take that over speculating who we'll take with our Top 10 pick every year.
  20. BoysFan4ever

    BoysFan4ever Well-Known Member

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    Well remember guys all these games that Tony would have won & should have won..remember Jerry wants the credit!

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