Anonymous Scouts speak out Part 2

Discussion in 'Draft Zone' started by Chocolate Lab, Apr 23, 2009.

  1. Chocolate Lab

    Chocolate Lab Run-loving Dino

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    QBs, etc
    Jonny : 4/18/2009 9:55 pm
    A Journal Sentinel poll of 18 personnel men suggested that the pecking order is established. Each was asked to list his favorites 1-2-3, with a first-place vote worth three points and so forth.

    Stafford had 11 first-place votes and 46 points, followed by Sanchez with five and 39 and Freeman with two and 21. Rhett Bomar and Pat White each had a third-place vote.

    "It's not the great year," Buffalo vice president Tom Modrak said. "You can find flies on all these guys. It gets to be a dilemma because there's certainly a year or two of training. But if the quarterback doesn't come in by mid-October you're in trouble with everyone."

    Stafford, whose arm strength has been compared to that of John Elway and Brett Favre, is looking to become the first quarterback from Georgia to do much in the NFL since Fran Tarkenton left Athens almost 50 years ago.

    Sanchez' 16 starts are about on a par with Ware, but at least Ware threw 1,074 passes at the University of Houston from 1987-'89 before flopping as the No. 7 pick in Detroit. Sanchez attempted 487.

    And, Freeman went a mere 14-18 as an erratic 32-game starter in the Big 12.

    "Sanchez is probably the riskiest," St. Louis vice president Tony Softli said. "The other guys have been starting since they were freshmen so they got three years in. He has 16 games. That's really scary."

    The 18 scouts also identify the next-best bet to one day become a starter. Bomar led with five votes, followed by Stephen McGee with 2½; Curtis Painter, Davis and White, each with 2; John Parker Wilson, 1½, and Chase Daniel, 1. One scout withheld his vote, saying no candidate deserved it.

    Not only must Davis overcome his status as a third-year junior but also widespread concern about his ability to handle an NFL playbook. Davis has acknowledged that he is learning disabled, and so it was not a shock when he scored merely 11 on the 50-question Wonderlic intelligence test.

    Although his score isn't that far off from the NFL average of about 19.5, it is extremely low for a quarterback. In the last 15 years, the only starting quarterbacks with scores of 15 or below have been Vince Young (15), Donovan McNabb (12), Charlie Batch (15) and Kordell Stewart (15). Seattle backup Seneca Wallace had a 10.

    "(Davis) has a Freeman arm and he was more accurate than Freeman," said Shemy Schembechler, a scout for the Washington Redskins. "I mean, he can throw it. But it will be a different learning process with him that some offensive coordinator is going to have to adjust to if he's going to play for you."

    "This draft is different than any I've seen in 20 years of doing this," a personnel director for an AFC team said. "There's one player that is on top of everybody's board, and that's (Aaron) Curry. Then you have differences of opinion on the next 30 guys. It's like everybody has a hole, a flaw.

    "If Detroit could they'd pass three or four times because the money is so high on top and there's not that great value. You might not see any trades in the top 10."

    Another personnel director for a team in the top eight said: "It's a second- and third-round draft. I would try to move down. I told (the team's owner) I would try to gamble and get seconds. You can get really good players in the second."

    In late February, New England coach Bill Belichick was jabbed by pundits for accepting Kansas City's offer of a second-round pick (No. 34) in the trade for quarterback Matt Cassel. It was pointed out that he might have picked up a first-round choice in a three-way deal with other teams if he had waited.

    More than likely, Belichick already knew the draft board was weak on top and wanted no part of a salary structure-wrecking high choice. Last year, the average guarantee was $11.9 million for a first-round pick, just $1.9 million for a second-round pick.

    Obtaining another cheap second-round pick was the perfect way to go.

    "Jake Long had a good year but they paid him more than any tackle that ever played the game," one scout said. "You really don't want a top-10 pick. It really hampers you if the guy ends up not being a player. Even if he does, he generally doesn't become worth that value you have to pay him."

    Take A.J. Hawk. As the No. 5 choice in 2006, Hawk's guaranteed money totaled $15.59 million. Hawk has played 90% of the defensive downs and at least is near the mid-point of starters playing his position. But knowing Hawk's average salary per year is higher than their own might have annoyed players such as Charles Woodson, Aaron Kampman and Nick Collins.

    Jamal Reynolds (No. 10 in 2001) collected $6.7 million in guaranteed money back when the salary cap was $67 million, not $127 million as it is today. The contract of Justin Harrell (No. 16 in 2007), which contains $6.547 million in guarantees, has locker-room ramifications now and will affect the cap if he ends up being jettisoned.

    As Thompson and associates begin final deliberations, they're looking at a first-round board dominated by unpredictable underclassmen and few game-changers.

    This month, the Journal Sentinel surveyed 20 personnel people with a national orientation and asked them to name the best player in the draft.

    Curry, the linebacker from Wake Forest, has been built up to be No. 1 since he worked out and interviewed well at the combine. Yet, in a bit of a surprise, the men who know best don't think he's the least bit dominating. Depending on the scout, he's rated about on a par with Hawk coming out.

    "He's not a violent football player," one personnel man said. "He's talented. Plays disciplined. But he's not a first-to-the-pile guy."

    Furthermore, he's not much of a pass rusher.

    Curry did win the poll but by merely a 9-7 margin over Michael Crabtree, the sophomore wide receiver from Texas Tech who remains on crutches after undergoing foot surgery last month.

    Four players received one vote: Missouri wide receiver Jeremy Maclin, Southern California middle linebacker Rey Maualuga, Baylor tackle Jason Smith and Georgia quarterback Matthew Stafford.

    Name School HT. WT. 40-Yd. Dash Rd.
    1. MATTHEW STAFFORD Georgia 6-2½ 225 4.82 1
    Best attribute is his powerful right arm. “In the pre-game warm-up, this guy will absolutely wow you with his ability to throw,” former Cleveland GM Phil Savage said. “He’s big enough, he really throws the ball well and he was well-liked at Georgia.” Beat out a senior in the middle of his freshman year and went on to start 34 straight games, winning 27. “I see things that remind me a lot of Troy Aikman,” one scout said. “He didn’t have as much talent as the guy at USC did. He’s got one of the best arms to come out in a long time.” Finished with an NFL passer rating of 85.6 in Georgia’s simplistic offensive system. “The offensive linemen are going to like him,” San Francisco personnel director Trent Baalke said. “He’s a guy who will go drink a beer with them and they will respond to him.” Compared by others to Jeff George and even Brett Favre, both of whom took chances with their superior arm strength. “I wouldn’t want to take the guy,” another scout said. “He’s got a big arm and he’s big, but he just doesn’t have the moxie, the savvy, the feel, the accuracy. He’s not a great locker-room guy. He’s a Lions’ kind of guy, like all those busts they’ve had.” Hails from the affluent Dallas suburb of Highland Park. Scored 35 on the Wonderlic intelligence test.
    2. MARK SANCHEZ USC 6-2 227 4.94 1
    Declared after one year as a starter. “He’s very athletic, makes a lot of throws on the move and has got a little toughness to him,” Tennessee scouting coordinator Blake Beddingfield said. Posted passer rating of 103.9. “Stafford has more pure ability than Sanchez but you get to see Sanchez do more,” Savage said. “He dropped back 3, 5, 7 steps, he did play-action, he did bootleg, he threw from the ’gun, he did screens. He just looks more accomplished than Stafford at this point. When I turned the tape off on Sanchez, I liked him better than (Matt) Leinart. He’s not as talented as Carson Palmer. I thought he fit somewhere in-between.” Third-generation Mexican-American, he grew up in Mission Viejo, Calif., as the son of a firefighter. “I still think he would have benefited from another year but I’d take him over Stafford,” one scout said. “He has that other stuff, the stuff you can’t teach. He’s a playmaker, he’s tough and he plays with a swagger.” Wonderlic of 28.
    3. JOSH FREEMAN Kansas State 6-5 1/2 250 4.95 1-2
    Became the starter five games into his freshman season and finished 14-18 overall. “He’s not a Donovan McNabb or a Daunte Culpepper, but if you’re looking for a quarterback to groom I would say this is the guy,” St. Louis VP Tony Softli said. “He’s got the size, the arm strength, touch. He can run with the ball. Very articulate and very smart (27 on the Wonderlic).” Operated a spread shotgun offense with marginal effectiveness, finishing with a passer rating of 81.0. Passed for 8,078 yards, breaking Lynn Dickey’s school record of 6,208. “You can’t pull any tape out and say you feel good about how that guy plays,” one scout said. “He’s bad. Raw talent but he has no clue. He has no vision. Very inaccurate. Their offense was one of the most inept I’ve seen. Him trying to run it, it was hard to watch.” His father, Ron, played in the United States Football League. Grew up in Kansas City. “He’s raw with footwork and release points,” another scout said. “Very inconsistent accuracy. He’s got some underachiever in him. Even though he’s smart enough he’s got some laziness about him.”
    4. PAT WHITE West Virginia 6-0 200 4.58 2-3
    Started 42 of 49 games, also becoming the first NCAA QB to start and win four bowl games. “He’s exciting,” San Diego GM A.J. Smith said. “Terrific athlete. I know he wants to be a quarterback. He will be carried probably as the last quarterback and will contribute.” Labeled as the “perfect wildcat quarterback” by one scout. Projected at WR by some teams, the position that he committed to play at LSU before the Mountaineers came on the scene. “I’ve known him since he was in ninth grade and used to come to my football camp every summer,” Savage said. “He’s a winner. In ’07, when Paul Warfield went to West Virginia and took a peek at him, he thought he would be a fantastic wide receiver. I always thought he was a little shaky as a passer, but having seen him in the bowl game, the Senior Bowl (where he was MVP) and the combine, I have to say that as a role-playing QB somebody will take a big bite of that apple. My concern is if he is really going to withstand the pounding as an every-down quarterback.” Compiled a passer rating of 99.8 in a spread offense and rushed for 4,480 yards, an NCAA record for a QB. Compared by one scout to Kordell Stewart, by another to Bert Emanuel. Wonderlic of 23.
    5. STEPHEN McGEE Texas A&M 6-3 223 4.65 3-4
    Two-year starter (rushed for 1,800 yards) in the freeze-option offense of Dennis Franchione but lost his job as a senior due to a shoulder injury and his fit in Mike Sherman’s West Coast attack. “He got caught between a rock and a hard place with two different coaches, two different styles,” one scout said. “He was a runner, then Mike Sherman wanted him to be more of a drop-back passer. He’s a big ol’ guy who can run and throw. Just real raw right now. He could be like that kid Kyle Boller. Similar type athlete. Could be a sleeper.” Started just three games in 2008. Finished with a passer rating of 84.5. “He’s got more talent than 80% of the quarterbacks out there,” another scout said. “He’s tough. Had some bad luck with injuries.” Wonderlic of 25.
    6. RHETT BOMAR Sam Houston State 6-2 225 4.72 4
    Started 11 games at Oklahoma in 2005 as a redshirt freshman but was kicked off for his role in a summer job scandal. Suspended by the NCAA for ’06, then started two years at Sam Houston State. “He could be a starter,” Tennessee national supervisor C.O. Brocato said. “Somebody put some money in his back pocket and he took it. He’s got size, he’s tough and he’s got a good arm.” Finished with a passer rating of 83.1. Had a poor week at the Senior Bowl. “I don’t think he’s accurate or a leader,” one scout said. “I don’t think he knows how to play the position.” Scored 27 on the Wonderlic. “Really good arm and quick release,” another scout said. “Just needs to refine some things.”.
    7. JOHN PARKER WILSON Alabama 6-1 1/2 217 4.49 4-5
    Started all 40 games from 2006-’08. “Smart kid (28 on the Wonderlic) who has played and produced, which is important to me,” one scout said. “Not real big physically but he knows the game. He has been before 100,000 people.” Passer rating of 80.0. “He has a baseball pitcher’s motion and the ball flies on him a lot,” another scout said. “He’s really inconsistent in his accuracy (56.6%). Accuracy is the most important thing for a quarterback. Not a bad athlete. Not an NFL starter.”
    8. NATE DAVIS Ball State 6-1½ 220 4.97 5-6
    Went 22-12 as a three-year starter for a team that was 27-63 in eight seasons before his arrival. “He’s got kind of a Favre arm,” Chicago GM Jerry Angelo said. “He flicks the ball and he’s accurate.” Looked like a first-day pick but fumbled eight times in season-ending defeats against Buffalo and Tulsa. Then showed up overweight at the combine and interviewed poorly. “I sat in on the interview and you came away with wondering if he can grasp the pro game,” one scout said. “If a lot of things are flying around will he be able to process and do what you want in an NFL game?” Has a learning disability and scored 11 on the Wonderlic. “(Offensive coordinator) Stan Parrish told me he restricted everything that he did,” another scout said. “He didn’t try to overburden him, and the kid worked at it and studied film. He took an average team in Ball State and they won a lot of games because of him.” Despite finishing with passer rating of 100.4 (74 TDs, 22 interceptions), Davis had just one team (nearby Indianapolis) attend his pro day in Muncie. “The NFL is going to eat him up, just spit him out to the wayside,” a third scout said. “I think that’s going to be sad.”.
    9. LANCE PAINTER Georgia 6-3 224 4.89 5-6
    Started 32 games. “He didn’t have a good year but, boy, I saw his pro day and he threw the ball just as well as Kyle Orton did,” Tennessee scout Johnny Meads said. “He’s got a strong arm. He’s not that fiery kind of guy but he has size and knows where to go with the ball.” Regressed as a senior and was benched late in the season. Finisher with passer rating of 82.1. “The biggest question I have is his leadership ability,” one scout said. “He’s an extremely soft-spoken kid. I’m not confident how he handles the huddle. If you’re not a leader as a quarterback, you’re going to have problems.”
    10. MIKE REILLY Central Washington 6-3 213 4.81 6-7
    Walked on at Washington State out of Kalispell, Mont., in 2003 before transferring to the ranks of Division II. “He was a four-year captain,” one scout said. “Great intangibles. Very smart (31 on the Wonderlic). He’s got a little bit of a funky delivery but it’s quick enough. He broke all of (Jon) Kitna’s records there. He’s quite athletic and very competitive.” Passer rating of 103.5. “Is he as good as Orton?” another scout said. “Yeah, probably. He could be workmanlike.”

    OTHERS: Brian Hoyer, Michigan State; Hunter Cantwell, Louisville; Cullen Harper, Clemson; Tom Brandstater, Fresno State; Graham Harrell, Texas Tech; Chase Daniel, Missouri; Nathan Brown, Central Arkansas; Drew Willy, Buffalo; Mike Teel, Rutgers; Chase Patton, Missouri.

    Link below goes to the first article.
    Link - ( New Window )
    Jonny : 4/18/2009 10:04 pm
    #9 is supposed to be Curtis Painter it looks like.
    Jonny - thanks for this info
    Scooter : 4/18/2009 11:38 pm
    Based on a quick scan, it looks like most of the receivers possibly on the board at #29 are projects - none of them are polished enough to step in year 1.

    The guy who is interesting is Massaquoi from Georgia - sounds like a Reese guy - big program, pretty smart, and flying below the radar. He could be there in the 2nd or 3rd round.

    As far as value, it sounds like the Giants would be better off picking the best athlete available (maybe an OT or LB - or even Pettigrew, if he slips) at 29
    there's always a run on OTs
    Jonny : 4/19/2009 1:21 am
    so whoever we could get at #29 would be a massive reach.

    I think Britt, Nicks, and Robiskie could all step in somewhat right away.
    keep forgetting about VB tags
    Jonny : 4/19/2009 8:41 pm
    two new Dougherty columns


    new McGinn later tonight probably
    OL time
    Jonny : 4/20/2009 1:53 am
    Angelo agrees with me. Can't get a good tackle late in the first round, always a run on them.

    Now here comes another draft and, just like last year, four left tackles might go off in the first 15 selections. The need certainly is there. But is there the talent to spawn the next Pace or the next Roaf?

    No, say general manager A.J. Smith of San Diego, former Cleveland GM Phil Savage and Tennessee scouting coordinator Blake Beddingfield, among many other scouts.

    "In another draft none of these guys would be top five," Seattle Seahawks scout Charles Fisher said. "They're good players, but I wouldn't consider any of these guys as pure franchise cornerstones. Branden Albert is more athletic than all these guys."

    Nineteen scouts with a national perspective participated in a Journal Sentinel survey asking them to rank the five best offensive linemen. A first-place vote was worth five points, a second was worth four and so on.

    The results were exceedingly close, at least among three of the Big Four left tackles.

    Baylor's Jason Smith gained a slight edge over Virginia's Eugene Monroe in points, 74-70. However, Alabama's Andre Smith, who was third with 64 points, had six first-place votes compared with seven for Jason Smith and only three for Monroe.

    It's an indication that scouts either really like Andre Smith or don't like him at all, and that enthusiastic endorsement of Monroe is hard to come by.

    Meanwhile, Mississippi's Michael Oher had the other three first-place votes but was a distant fourth in points with 38. Four voters left him off their ballots entirely.

    "The tackles, you can find reasons why all of them will struggle," an AFC personnel director said. "One with weight (Andre Smith), one with anchor (Jason Smith), one with passion (Monroe) and one with intelligence (Oher)."

    A personnel director for another AFC team recalled just how simple it was evaluating Ogden and Boselli and Roaf.

    "When I saw Jason Smith during the fall, yes, I thought he'd be a solid first-round pick for somebody," Savage said. "But I never dreamed people would be talking about him as the first pick in the whole draft. You've got to be kidding me."

    In a draft minus great prospects, the top 10 is going to include some players who would have been taken in the mid- to late teens or even the 20s in a more typical year.

    Nobody is saying this class of offensive linemen will approach 1986, when four of the seven first-rounders (Brian Jozwiak, James FitzPatrick, Mike Haight and Mike Schad) went down as busts. Then again, no one is saying that it won't.

    "I like the group," said Trent Baalke, San Francisco's director of player personnel. "But it's like the wide-receiver group: There's something in each one of them that makes you uneasy. The safest of the group is Monroe."

    When the hemming and hawing was over and scouts were ready to declare which player had the best chance to bust, the vote on the Big Four fell this way: Andre Smith 8, Oher 6, Monroe 1 and Jason Smith 1.

    Others getting bust votes were tackle Will Beatty, 1½; tackle Phil Loadholt, 1, and guard Duke Robinson, one-half.

    "Jason Smith's got everything but he never run-blocks," another scout said. "I don't know if he can blow guys off the ball. My God, he's from Baylor! There's no solid guy in that grouping. Alex Mack is probably the safest pick."

    Mack, one of three highly regarded centers, accumulated 13 points in the voting for best offensive lineman. Center-guard Max Unger had 14 and center Eric Wood finished with eight.

    Rounding out the voting was tackle Eben Britton, three points, and Beatty, one.

    "One thing about tackles, the reason they go in the first round is the value," Chicago GM Jerry Angelo said. "Not necessarily because they're the 25th-, 26th-best player in the draft. It's the value of the position. That's what speaks volumes."

    Name School HT. WT. 40-Yd. Dash Rd.
    1. JASON SMITH Baylor 6-5 308 5.19 1
    Baylor hasn't had a first-round draft choice since DT Daryl Gardener in 1996. "I think he can be (a great player)," Tennessee national supervisor C.O. Brocato said. "Great feet. He's still got a lot to learn." Started eight games at TE (six receptions) in 2005 before moving to RT in '06. Then started at LT in 2007 and '08. "I went to practice on a Thursday and he was out there getting everyone lined up," one scout said. "The one thing that really stands out about him is his leadership. (Michael) Oher was the last guy out for practice at Ole Miss and the last guy in line for drills. Jason Smith is the first guy out for practice and the first guy in line." Extremely mature. Scored 22 on the 50-question Wonderlic intelligence test. "He's not a great player," another scout said. "Honestly, I'd have a hard time taking him in the top 10. He played hard and all that stuff, but he's a little stiff and is not a great run-blocker." Played most of his time in a two-point stance. "He's the most overrated from a physical standpoint," a third scout said. "He lacks hip and lower-body flexibility in general along with base and balance. I don't think he can pass-block at left tackle. I think he's a right tackle. He can't get leverage."
    2. EUGENE MONROE Virginia 6-5½ 312 5.20 1
    Backed up D'Brickashaw Ferguson in '05 before starting 30 games at LT. "(Andre) Smith is more of that dominating, ***-kicking finisher," St. Louis VP Tony Softli said. "Monroe is more finesse. He's not overly powerful but he is explosive and has strong hands. He's like a young (Orlando) Pace. There's a lot of guys that don't pancake you and drive you into the ground and get the job done." Smart (26 on the Wonderlic), consistent and an average run-blocker. "He's a pretty good pass protector and a true left tackle," former Cleveland GM Phil Savage said. "But he doesn't play with the force of Jason Smith." Bench-pressed 225 pounds 23 times whereas Jason Smith did 33, Oher did 23 and Andre Smith did 19. Several scouts said Monroe was "just not real physical." Said Arizona scout Jerry Hardaway: "If Andre Smith's body was as defined as Eugene's is, hell, we'd be talking about him into tomorrow. Eugene has nifty feet with ability to sustain at the point of attack and adjust and counter in space. This guy has a little bit more up side than D'Brickashaw at the same stage in the sense that he's much stouter."
    3. ANDRE SMITH Alabama 6-4 325 5.29 1
    Started 38 straight games at LT, including all 13 as a freshman in '06. "My God," one scout said. "Just put the film in. The (expletive) guy can play football." That fact has become overlooked in the midst of his recent misadventures. First, he was suspended for the Sugar Bowl for dealing with an agent. Second, he left the combine half a day early without telling anyone. Third, he turned in less than auspicious numbers at his pro day. "The character, the weight stuff, the non-working stuff . . . he's got a lot of ways he can screw it up," another scout said. "He's just lazy. Takes the easy way out. He plays that way." Hails from a strong two-parent home in Birmingham, Ala. "The kid's a great kid," a third scout said. "He's just very country." Often compared to Shawn Andrews (6-4, 345, 5.48), who became an all-pro guard for the Eagles. At the very least, scouts say he should excel at guard. Almost all love his ability to knock people off the ball. "The onus is on him to become more disciplined and get his body firmed up," Hardaway said. "Willie Roaf's body was way better than this guy's. But he's got the feet, the wing span (35 3/8 -inch arms, longest by far of the leading tackles). The athletic movements put him in the level of Chris Samuels. But he ain't a great player by no stretch of the imagination." Wonderlic of 17.
    4. MICHAEL OHER Mississippi 6-4½ 307 5.28 1
    His mother, Denise, was addicted to crack cocaine. His father was murdered. Homeless at 16 and not even playing organized football yet, he was adopted by another family after a chance encounter on the streets of Memphis. Later, he became the central figure in Michael Lewis' book, "Blind Side." "I think he was always overhyped because of the book," one scout said. "He looks the part. He was average at the Senior Bowl. He got jolted around a little bit against LSU. There's too many questions." Described as a visual learner; scored 19 on the Wonderlic. The woman who was hired to guide/tutor him later on in high school was hired by Ole Miss to serve the same role during his studies in the field of criminal justice. "He's not a bad kid," another scout said. "The family kind of spoiled the heck out of him. He has an entourage of people that are very protective. The coaches at Ole Miss say he's kind of selfish. They said that if he quit football after he signed his contract they wouldn't be surprised, or he could play 10 years. Kind of a lazy guy. You talk to him, you just don't get a great feel. But on the flip side, he plays every week. You're going to be happy with him because he has the ability and can do it immediately." Started at RT in '05, then at LT from 2006-'08. Became more physical down the stretch in '08. "He's a thick lower body kind of guy," Savage said. "He has more left tackle qualities than Andre Smith but I didn't think he finished plays quite as well. Does he love the game, or what comes with being in the game? Well, he showed up at the Senior Bowl when other guys didn't. He's on track to be a pretty good player."
    5. EBEN BRITTON Arizona 6-6 310 5.16 1-2
    Fourth-year junior. "He's got a chance to be a heck of a football player," San Diego GM A.J. Smith said. "All on the up side." Started at RT in 2006 and '07 before moving to LT in '08. Athletically, he is viewed by most teams as best suited for RT. "He had stiffness to him," one scout said. "They (Arizona coaches) didn't think he was a real tough guy." Hails from a distinguished family from Burbank, Calif. Wonderlic of 31. "He can go in, learn a system pretty quickly and be a nice player," Tennessee scouting coordinator Blake Beddingfield said. "I don't know if he will be a dominant player but he he'll play eight, nine years. Great body, great frame. Short arms (32¾), but there are tackles that get away with that like (Mark Tauscher) and (Michael) Roos. He understands the game."
    6. WILL BEATTY Connecticut 6-6 307 5.08 1-2
    His mother and father are pastors in York, Pa. ""He might be the best athlete of all of them (top tackles)," one scout said. "Really good feet. He's just a little soft and behind technique-wise. I don't know if he has a love for the game. He will need a year or two to come along." Started 35 games at LT. "Not a real physical guy," another scout said. "I'm not sure what will happen to a finesse guy from the Big East when one of those crazy (guys) lines up over him and tries to knock his head off. I never really saw him drive-block anybody off the line and try to finish a block, but he's got a lot of talent." Wonderlic of 19. "He's an athlete, and everyone loves an athlete," a third scout said. "I usually do, too, but with that kid I don't see it. People will draft anything these days. He needs to add a lot of strength. I think Beatty will bust."
    7. JAMON MEREDITH South Carolina 6-5 304 5.01 2
    Made 38 starts, including 19 games at LT, 11 at RT and eight at RG. "His strengths are height, arm length (34½), foot quickness, leverage, speed, pulling, second level," one scout said. "He comes up short in production, compete and functional strength. The kid certainly has the look of an NFL starter. Then you dig and start to understand the inconsistencies. Noncompetitor. Very little passion for the game." Some of the Gamecocks' coaches told scouts he was a "locker room lawyer" who was hard to coach. "Probably the best athlete in this linemen group," another scout said. "They got on him saying he wasn't dedicated but he was one of the better workers there. Great kid."
    8. PHIL LOADHOLT Oklahoma 6-8 332 5.48 2
    Junior-college transfer who was the Sooners' LT in 2007 and '08. "He's big, tough, uses his hands well and has long arms (36½)," one scout said. "But as a left tackle he just doesn't have the range. He's a right tackle, an in-line guy. Get your hands on you." Compared by one scout to Pittsburgh's Max Starks, who started for two Super Bowl teams. "Big stiff guy but he ain't bad," another scout said. Scored 23 on the Wonderlic but isn't a quick study. "He's a load," a third scout said. "No question in my mind he'll make a team if he can learn. Some of those big guys never learn the game."
    9. GERALD CADOGAN Penn State 6-5 310 5.07 3-4
    Made 26 starts at LT and five at LG. "I don't see him as a guard and I don't know if he's strong enough to be a right tackle," Seattle scout Charles Fisher said. "He's a decent athlete. He's definitely not a strong, physical guy." All-around singer-entertainer who has released two gospel/R&B CDs. "I'm not a big Cadogan fan," one scout said. "His numbers are better than his play. I think he's a sixth- or seventh-rounder. But with his numbers somebody will have a hot flash. I will have to grin and bear it that day."
    10. SEBASTIAN VOLLMER Houston 6-7½ 312 5.21 3-4
    Born and raised in Germany, where he played soccer as a youth. "Big ol' boy who's on the come," Brocato said. "He wasn't even on the list when you went in there (last fall). He had a great workout there and his stock keeps rising every day. He speaks broken English. Very smart kid (23 on the Wonderlic). Reliable and all that." Weighed 230 upon arrival in '04. Two-year starter at LT. "He's athletic enough, really strong (32 on the bench press) and a tough guy," one scout said. "The offense there is the spread but in the East-West Game he did a nice job down in a stance and angle blocking." Added another scout, "He's terrible."

    OTHERS:Lydon Murtha, Nebraska; Troy Kropog, Tulane; Xavier Fulton, Illinois; Dan Gay, Baylor; Fenuki Tupou, Oregon; Gus Parrish, Kent State; Garrett Reynolds, North Carolina; Seth Olsen, Iowa; Alex Boone, Ohio State; Jose Valdez, Arkansas; Andrew Gardner, Georgia Tech; Ramon Foster, Tennessee.

    Name School HT. WT. 40-Yd. Dash Rd.
    1. ANDY LEVITRE Oregon State 6-2½ 306 5.35 2
    Started at RT from 2005-'07 and at LT in '08. "He's not a left tackle athlete or size-wise but he's good," one scout said. "Great use of hands. Plays on his feet. Not a quick-footed athletic guy but he really knows how to play. He's got to be a guard." Extremely smart (36 on the Wonderlic). "He's a tough guy," another scout said. "Little short-armed (32½)." Might be best at center. "He's not a super power kind of player but he's a really good positioner and technician," a third scout said. "He has a lot of good qualities. He's consistent."
    2. MAX UNGER Oregon 6-4½ 307 5.29 2
    "He played center and left tackle at Oregon," Softli said. "Went to the Senior Bowl and played guard and center. I think he found a home at guard. He can be a swing man." Played LT in 2005 and '06 and center in 2007 and '08, starting 52 straight games. "His numbers are not special but when he plays the game he's athletic," Buffalo VP Tom Modrak said. "Not strong but he gets on blocks and he runs his feet and he stays on it." His versatility was compared by one scout to that of Minnesota's Ryan Cook. "You like his toughness," one scout said. "Little stiff. Doesn't have really good strength so he can't play guard."
    3. DUKE ROBINSON Oklahoma 6-5 330 5.34 2-3
    Three-year starter at LG. "He is one of the few power guards in this draft," San Francisco personnel director Trent Baalke said. "He's coming off a year in which he was plagued by an ankle injury. His inconsistency on film, his inability to dominate on a consistent basis, is a concern. If he decides he wants to be a pro, then he's got a good chance to develop." Appears to tire and then takes downs off. Frequently overextends in protection. "He's not fat," one scout said. "He's a terrific athlete who had a great year as a junior. He's not real bright." Grew up in the toughest sections of Atlanta. Doesn't fit teams with a zone-blocking scheme. "He's completely overrated," another scout said. "They rotate him in and out of there. He's huge and has some athletic ability, but he's out of control. He doesn't move his feet. He falls on the ground all the time. He's lazy. He's a mess."
    4. KRAIG URBIK Wisconsin 6-5 328 5.32 3
    Four-year starter, including 34 games at RT and 16 at RT. "He looked like the typical Wisconsin lineman," Savage said. "Solid player. Probably will have a seven-, eight-, nine-year career." Compared by one scout to former Badgers G Dan Buenning. ""He's just a big guy," one scout said. "I never really saw the explosion that Wisconsin linemen usually have. Maybe it's quickness, or tenacity. It kind of bothered me. I'm sure he'll make it because he's a big guy and in those zones schemes he'll just have to step." Wonderlic of 28. "Not a real pretty guy," another scout said. "I think he knows how to play. He can square up to people. I just wish he would finish a little more. In some games, he does. In others, you want him to do a little more."
    5. ANTOINE CALDWELL Alabama 6-3 310 5.29 3-4
    Started 48 games, including 34 at center, 12 at LG, one at RG and one at RT. "Not that he wouldn't start at center but at the very least he's a swing guy," Modrak said. "Plays hard. They come off the ball. They know how to play down there." Graduated in less than three years. "Really smart and very physical," one scout said. "He doesn't fit what we do (zone blocking scheme). He's going to be a power football player."
    6. HERMAN JOHNSON Louisiana State 6-7 356 5.59 3-4
    Weighed 382 at the Senior Bowl but didn't look overweight. "I'm not saying he can't play," one scout said. "I'm saying there's a bust factor if he's 400." His arms measured 36½, his hands 11 3/8 . Weighed 15 pounds 14 ounces at birth, an unofficial Louisiana record. "If you're a 240-pound linebacker, and that's a big linebacker, and he pushes you, you fly 10 yards," another scout said. "I love to watch him play. He's so huge and he can run." Three-year starter. Wears a size-17 shoe. "He's like Leonard Davis," a third scout said. "Once he gets on top of you it's over." Not very strong (24 on the bench press) and isn't cut out for a zone scheme. "He is a huge man that just cannot move his feet," a fourth scout said. "And for a big guy like that he's not very powerful."
    7. CORNELIUS LEWIS Tennessee State 6-3½ 334 5.31 4
    Started three games at RG for Florida State in '05 before being kicked out of school in '06. "Big body guy," Softli said. "Long arms (33½). Moves his feet real well. There's not a lot of guards. He'll get a chance early." Made 23 starts at Tennessee State, all at tackle. "He doesn't dominate at that level," one scout said. "Big and thick like you like 'em. But I think the speed of the NFL game is going to catch him. You've got people talking about him early but I wouldn't be jumping on the table to touch him until somewhere around the fifth round."
    8. ROBERT BREWSTER Ball State 6-4 324 5.29 4-5
    Started seven games at RG in '05 and the last three years at RT. "He's got good feet and is a pretty good competitor," Washington scout Shemy Schembechler said. "Coming from a small school, he's not sure how good he can be. He's better off playing guard." Overcame a serious weight problem early in college. "Big, strong, heavy guy," one scout said. "Tough kid. Kind of slow-footed."
    9. T.J. LANG Eastern Michigan 6-4 312 5.21 4-5
    Moved from defensive line to offensive line in '06, starting at RT that year and at LT in 2007 and '08. "Very strong guy," one scout said. "Tough kid. Runs well enough. May end up at guard because of the height. Can anchor. Little stiff. Problem with change of direction. Doesn't have really good feet." Wasn't invited to the combine from a program that has been down for a long time. "Great kid, good worker but a terrible space player," another scout said. "He should be a guard, but if you're running a pull system or a zone scheme he's going to struggle. Not a very good balance athlete. Too stiff for me."
    10. TREVOR CANFIELD Cincinnati 6-4½ 308 5.32 5-6
    Made 42 starts, all at guard. "He's a mauler type," Baltimore personnel director Eric DeCosta said. "I could see him eventually becoming a starter because he is a tough, physical guy. Good mentality." Wonderlic of 16. Short arms. "Run-blocker," one scout said. "Tough guy. He won't test great." Added another scout: "Tight as a drum. He's on the ground more than not. He's a limited guy."

    OTHERS: Louis Vasquez, Texas Tech; Tyronne Green, Auburn; Andy Kemp, Wisconsin; C.J. Davis, Pittsburgh; Roger Allen, Missouri Western State; Jaimie Thomas, Maryland; Paul Fanaika, Arizona State; Anthony Parker, Tennessee; Rich Ohrnberger, Penn State; Brandon Walker, Oklahoma; Travis Bright, Brigham Young; Ryan Stanchek, West Virginia.

    Name School HT. WT. 40-Yd. Dash Rd.
    1. ALEX MACK California 6-4 309 5.17 1-2
    Three-year starter. "I think he's going to be a great player," one scout said. "He's the best player at his position but it's not a position people think is all that critical. It's conceivable Mack could be taken after a guy like Beatty or Loadholt. It's a joke. He's twice as good a player, but he plays center instead of tackle." Rugged, brawling type of player. "He's always running around trying to smack somebody and he winds up in a pratfall every once in a while," another scout said. "Little bit overextended. On the ground more. You can coach him out of that a little bit." Smart (24 on the Wonderlic) but didn't fare well in bench-press testing (20). "He's a guy that people feel is safe," a third scout said. "Is he a top athlete for the position? No. Is he overpowering at the position? No. Does he have a huge up side? No. What you see is what you get, and if you're comfortable with that then you make the pick."
    2. ERIC WOOD Louisville 6-4 310 5.22 2
    Parlayed impressive showings at the Senior Bowl and combine into a higher draft position. "He will be the keeper," Hardaway said. "He's tough, physical, competitive. The good thing, he plays with a passion." Started all 49 games, including three seasons in front of Brian Brohm. "There's something missing with him," one scout said. "He works out well but there's something wrong with his balance. He struggles adjusting and ends up on the ground too much. He'd have a chance at guard." Wonderlic of 29. "What makes these centers unique is they're naturally 300-pound guys," Chicago GM Jerry Angelo said. "Potentially, you could see them going in the first because they're big men."
    3. JONATHAN LUIGS Arkansas 6-3½ 300 5.16 4
    Started seven games at RG in '05 before becoming the No. 1 center for the next three seasons. "Strength is the issue with him," one scout said. "He has really fine movement skills, awareness, know-how, quickness, tenacity, finish, motivation." Projected as a better fit for zone teams. "He's not dominating but he blocks everybody," another scout said. "He's not a ripping, snarling, get-after-you guy." Wonderlic of 32. "He's always about encouraging his teammates," a third scout said. "He's a leader. He's got short arms (31¼) but he has a knack for moving his feet. I thought he'd get totally blown up and destroyed by (Terrance) Cody of Alabama. A couple times he did but other than that he did a good job."
    4. A.Q. SHIPLEY Penn State 6-1 305 5.21 4-5
    Backup DT in '05 before becoming the starting center in '06. "You can compare him to (Scott) Wells in Green Bay size-wise," Fisher said. "This kid is tough, he's smart, he battles. It's going to be hard to get him out of the lineup if he gets in there. He's got some quicks. He's strong, but he won't drive people off the ball. He can hold his anchor. He's a position blocker with the best of them. He is not afraid. His strength shows when he throws people. He can throw." Put up 33 repetitions on the bench press but arms were measured at just 29¾. "He's the exact same guy as Wells," one scout said. "I think he's a really good college player but he has some limitations."
    5. EDWIN WILLIAMS Maryland 6-2½ 308 5.45 5-6
    Three-year starter with 20 on the Wonderlic and really long arms (34½). "Shipley is a lot better," one scout said. "Williams was good for them in the sense that he held everything together. He made the calls and all that stuff. But he's a short-area guy with below-average athletic ability."

    OTHERS: Blake Schlueter, Texas Christian; Robby Felix, Texas-El Paso; Rob Bruggeman, Iowa; Cecil Newton, Tennessee State; Brett Helms, Louisiana State; Alex Fletcher, Stanford; Jon Cooper, Oklahoma; John "Ryan" Shuman, Virginia Tech.
  2. Chief

    Chief "Friggin Joke Monkey"

    8,541 Messages
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    Duke Robinson "Not bright ... lazy ... a mess ...."

    Meredith "Locker-room lawyer ...."

    I've been a Britton fan, but he'll be long gone.

    Good stuff, CL.
  3. RS12

    RS12 Well-Known Member

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    These articles are outstanding. Tell me the bad stuff and stuff we dont know like here. The good stuff should be obvious when I watch a guy play. Heres why I dont want this guy. Besides being lazy and not particularly bright, and alot of penalties, he was lousy aginst Florida probably the highest level of competion he faced all year.
  4. RS12

    RS12 Well-Known Member

    21,722 Messages
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    Ok so the guy has a big mouth and needs time in the weight room. None of this is a reason to drop him from the draft board. He has the feet to play LT and can be had where Dallas has picks. NE is looking at him hard, Dallas should be too.
  5. jterrell

    jterrell Penguinite

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    the penalties in the biggest games stood out to me because it said when facing near equal quality competition he didnt handle it well mentally.

    that bothers me for sure.
  6. Bob Sacamano

    Bob Sacamano Benched

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    I totally do not want Duke Robinson

    not bright, conditioning an issue, slow of foot, the Justin Tucks of the world are going to have their way with him
  7. BAT

    BAT Mr. Fixit

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    These are great finds C-Lab, not just because my past comments are validated. :D

    The top 3 centers are the best players in their position group (OL) in this draft. I hope that is clear to all now.
  8. Bob Sacamano

    Bob Sacamano Benched

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    I knew that for awhile now
  9. DFWJC

    DFWJC Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, it's good to hear a range of opinions. It's comical how some always choose some the best players in NFL history to compare these guys to--like the other one saying Mareno is like Emmit or Walter Payton. Maybe so, but the odds are very close to zero that a civen back will end up being the all-time NFL leading rusher. Same with all of the other positons.

    So let's here all angles.
  10. BAT

    BAT Mr. Fixit

    11,279 Messages
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    Yeah, but you're Bob Sacamanowned.... LOL

    Sorry, it was either that or "FAIL"
  11. Bob Sacamano

    Bob Sacamano Benched

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    I kill you!
  12. Chocolate Lab

    Chocolate Lab Run-loving Dino

    33,928 Messages
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    What about the "Noncompetitor. Very little passion for the game" part?

    No thanks. No wonder he's off our board.
  13. BAT

    BAT Mr. Fixit

    11,279 Messages
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    Plus his game is not suited to Houck's power scheme. Meredith will have better success in a zone scheme.
  14. irvin4evs

    irvin4evs Benched

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    Some of these scouts sound like lawyers.
  15. HoosierCowboy

    HoosierCowboy Put Pearson in the HOF

    2,295 Messages
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    take Unger then Mack then the best safeties and/ILB available

    I hope we don't draft a WR
  16. 28 Joker

    28 Joker 28 Joker

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    I didn't dispute that they were not the top 3 guys. I just think Caldwell is the best value to the Cowboys, especially with a Pro Bowl center starting and in his prime.

    They list Unger and Caldwell as guards, and Caldwell is going to be drafted in round 3 in all probability. Caldwell is the power player (not Unger), and LG is an issue for the Cowboys.

    If the Cowboys draft a center, Caldwell is the best value in round 3 or 4, imo.

    I'm standing by it.

    That is what part of the debate was about.
  17. BAT

    BAT Mr. Fixit

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    The jab was not at you 41gy. :) I know you know your stuff. But I am curious what you think about Broaddus remarks regarding Cowboys interest in Unger, for OT?

    I'm sure their interest is in his ability to play all the OL positions, at a high level. I agreed with you about Unger needed to get stronger, but his nastiness and hand punch compensate for his lack of mass right now IMO. In any case, Max Anger will still need to hit the weight room & pick up about 20 lbs to be effective in Houck's scheme. I just love his intelligence and how he plays w/bad intentions.

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