News: Archer: Cowboys coaches, scouts get on same page

Discussion in 'News Zone' started by WoodysGirl, Feb 20, 2014.

  1. Yakuza Rich

    Yakuza Rich Well-Known Member

    16,593 Messages
    8,367 Likes Received
    So if I'm wrong, why does every team set their draft with the scheme in mind?

    Why did the Colts ditch their 4-3 and go with drafting 3-4 personnel once Chuck Pagano took over?

    Why did the Patriots look for pass receiving TE's and drag route style WR's once Josh McDaniels started to run the offense?

    Why do the Seahawks look for large DB's and speedy front seven players since Pete Carroll became the HC?

    Why did the Broncos start immediately looking for 4-3 personnel when John Fox took over?

    Or the Eagles looking for 3-4 personnel when Chip Kelly took over?

    Or the Texans switching to a 3-4 once Wade became the D-Coordinator?

    Or the Packers drafting 3-4 personnel when Dom Capers took over?

    I could go on and on.

    Nobody purely drafts on best player available. The Colts are not going to draft a QB in the first round because he's rated the best player available just like the Seahawks are not going to draft a player best suited for 3-4 DE. Every BPA philosophy considers some variables and in reality it's more like drafting the BPA based on what your various needs and 'this may not be a need, but worth considering drafting here' scenarios.

  2. Risen Star

    Risen Star Likes Collector Zone Supporter

    39,463 Messages
    48,635 Likes Received

    Because none of those things happened. At least not as you're describing them. Obviously teams will consider how to use the player within their scheme. You're not breaking any news there. I'm talking about teams ignoring better talent because they don't see how the player will fit the first year. None of the well run teams do that. It's drafting for need during a process that is all about stockpiling talent for the long term.
  3. Alexander

    Alexander What's it going to be then, eh?

    43,040 Messages
    31,499 Likes Received
    The scouts? Who is the GM? Who is the boss? Should that person have not got everyone together once the decision to scrap the 3-4 was made?

    Kiffin was hired in January, the draft was in April. There is no reason why the direction could not have been given at that time to get everyone on the same page.

    That board, at least defensively was ridiculous. And it is directly on Jones.
    dogberry and Zimmy Lives like this.
  4. Zimmy Lives

    Zimmy Lives Well-Known Member

    8,702 Messages
    3,888 Likes Received
    And it always will be until his Creator calls him home.
  5. Wood

    Wood Well-Known Member

    6,750 Messages
    2,587 Likes Received
    its unfathomable that this wasn't already occurring last year.
  6. cmoney23

    cmoney23 Well-Known Member

    571 Messages
    526 Likes Received
    Well, while you are correct, no one know what would have happened. But you can look at where and when other teams took Centers and get a better idea.
    131Dallas CowboysTravis Frederick CWisconsinBig Tenfrom San Francisco[R1 - 11]
    4107Tennessee TitansBrian Schwenke CCaliforniaPac-12
    4121Indianapolis ColtsKhaled Holmes CUSCPac-12
    6170Kansas City ChiefsEric Kush CCalifornia (PA)PSAC
    7*251Cincinnati BengalsT. J. Johnson CSouth CarolinaSEC
    I would have to think that their being a 76 spot drop off in between centers picked that we would have been safe waiting 16 more spots! I look at value in a draft, not just the outcome... and while we got a nice player in Fredrick we could have had TWO nice players in Floyd and Fredrick that could have been better "need fits" also.
  7. Risen Star

    Risen Star Likes Collector Zone Supporter

    39,463 Messages
    48,635 Likes Received
    When you have a player ranked 5th on your board, then you reached to get Frederick. It doesn't matter that it was the 31st pick. There was a higher rated prospect on your board than the one you selected.

    This just happened to work out. Usually it wouldn't.
    Idgit likes this.
  8. Idgit

    Idgit If you food, you gonna be ate. Staff Member

    45,954 Messages
    32,542 Likes Received
    I'm not sure where the other OCs were taken is all that relevant. Teams rank players on both ability and fit for their teams, and it's entirely possible to have only one 1st or 2nd round guy at a particular position on the board.

    I'm not a huge fan, anyway, of us trying to anticipate what 31 other teams might do in regards to a single player in a draft round, anyway. Much rather we just fit the players for our system and select them where we think they represent value than get into games of guessing that one 1st or 2nd round value is more likely to slide to the 3rd or 4th round than another .
    dogberry likes this.
  9. Alexander

    Alexander What's it going to be then, eh?

    43,040 Messages
    31,499 Likes Received
    Maybe the board was a pretend board. You know, for practice.
  10. Yakuza Rich

    Yakuza Rich Well-Known Member

    16,593 Messages
    8,367 Likes Received
    That's exactly how they happened.

    The Colts were a diminutive defense that relied on speed and played in a 4-3 scheme similar to what Kiffin plays. Before then they used a 3-4 under Jim Mora. They immediately decided that given Peyton's abilities as a QB that they wanted to create a high powered offense and a defense designed to be speedy so they could stop the pass against teams trying to play catchup. They drafted exclusively fast front 7 players like Dwight Freeney and Robert Mathis and used more physical DB's to help player their Cover 2. Completely the opposite of a Jim Mora 3-4 scheme.

    Then when Peyton went to Denver and Pagano took over, they became a 3-4 squad that geared their draft towards 3-4 personnel.

    To act like none of these teams ever pass up better talent because they don't fit the scheme is being willfully ignorant. It happens all of the time because the player is not likely to be as good if they are playing in a scheme that doesn't fit into their strengths.

    Iago33 likes this.
  11. Picksix

    Picksix A Work in Progress

    5,197 Messages
    1,079 Likes Received
    I see your point, and I don't agree with how that was handled. My point was that we had Fred ranked at #23 and took him later than that, so from that standpoint, it's not a reach. If you're just going by who we ranked higher, than yes. But let me ask you this (and I'm mean this in all seriousness). Given your philospohy of prioritizing OL/DL over DB's, if instead of Floyd, it would have been a DB that we had rated that high, and passed over for Fred. Would you have agreed with it, or would you say we still should have drafted the DB?
  12. Risen Star

    Risen Star Likes Collector Zone Supporter

    39,463 Messages
    48,635 Likes Received
    It happens all the time?

    Show me one time that it's happened. Tell me the team, the player they picked and the better player they ignored.

    BTW, don't tell me a bed time story here. I'm talking actual facts. References. Something.
  13. Yakuza Rich

    Yakuza Rich Well-Known Member

    16,593 Messages
    8,367 Likes Received
    But, that assumes that nobody would have liked Frederick if he was available after #31.

    This team desperately needed a better center. We struggled for years with our guards and our center and while the guard play wasn't stellar, it certainly picked up this year with Bernie and Leary. I think it was more of a function of adding a good center who could call line adjustments (remember, Kosier would have to call them for Gurode). Costa was suspect at best as a center and couldn't stay healthy.

    So thinking that we would be safe at waiting 16 more spots is a guess and since it was crucial that we get a real center, it was better to not risk it.

    I do think we reached a bit, but it was better to risk by reaching than to risk by thinking he would fall to us in the 2nd round.

    The truth of the matter is that we should have never needed Frederick since we should have found a quality center years beforehand.

  14. Yakuza Rich

    Yakuza Rich Well-Known Member

    16,593 Messages
    8,367 Likes Received
    Show me a time when a good organization has ignored their scheme in part of their draft analysis process.

    I showed you times. Bill Polian has specifically stated how he changed the personnel they were looking for when he took over the Colts because he knew they were going to be an offensive powerhouse and other teams would have to throw the ball to catch up and that he specifically targeted smaller, faster pass rushing D-Linemen, smaller faster pass coverage linebackers and bigger DB's because that fit the scheme.

    Corso likes this.
  15. dbonham

    dbonham Well-Known Member

    587 Messages
    447 Likes Received
    I don't care how it happened, I'm just glad we didn't take Floyd. We would all now be complaining about how we should have thrown the board out and picked Eric Reid. Watching the tape he did not look like a first round player. If you aren't running a two gap scheme there's no reason to pick a 1 or 0 tech who isn't a pocket destroyer. Better believe we would have taken Star at 18, because when you watch his college tape he is a game changer. Every play he takes the center and puts him wherever the QB is supposed to stand, he doesn't care about gap control because he transforms the LOS into a world without gaps, only darkness. The same is true of Poe, but who really thought that would work out.
  16. cmoney23

    cmoney23 Well-Known Member

    571 Messages
    526 Likes Received
    All good and valid points, but the original topic of this thread is how draft day miss communication and disorganization lead to us missing a top 5 rated DT. So I have to believe that we moved back to try and "regroup" and we got "stuck" at 31 and decided to reach some and get Fredrick.

    I love Travis on this team and COMPLETELY agree we needed to draft a C/OG last year. But based on track record of this administration you have to question questionable processes.

    End question to me is would I rather have Floyd and a (pretty good) chance at Fredrick over Fredrick and Escobar?? I think I rather have Floyd and (lets say an 80%) chance at Fredrick.
  17. burmafrd

    burmafrd Benched

    43,820 Messages
    3,379 Likes Received
    wrong. Floyd should not have been #5 on our board due to the fact that he really did not fit our new system. That is clear from what has been said. The problem was on DRAFT DAY he was still #5 on our board that had been set up for a 3-4 system NOT the 4-3 we were moving into.
    dogberry likes this.
  18. cmoney23

    cmoney23 Well-Known Member

    571 Messages
    526 Likes Received
    *** you talking about wrong? He's a 6'3" just under 300lb 4-3 DT? How doesn't he "fit our system"??? You read that in a post and it must be true? The vikings ran a cover 2/tampa 2 last year. The Rumor of Jared Allen coming to dallas and he'd fit just fine... but the DT next to him won't?
  19. adamknite

    adamknite Well-Known Member

    4,041 Messages
    326 Likes Received
    At the risk of sticking my nose into this discussion and getting blasted... I read an article that said that they had trimmed down their draft board to only players they really wanted. It could be that they really did think Floyd was the fifth best player in the draft (Stephen did say he felt they had him rated correctly) and it really could just be as simple as "when he fell that far, they reevaluated on the spot if they wanted him or Frederick and more picks at this point in time."

    There is no rule that says you have to follow your draft board to the letter, it's possible it was as simple as they liked the idea of Frederick and more picks when the time came.

    Or maybe the other quote from Stephen is literal... maybe they just had a player for whatever reason really high on the draft board who slipped through the cracks when they remodeled it for the 3-4 scheme. The same article I mentioned said the Cowboys had taken off some of the 3-4 DT's from their list... maybe one guy just happened to still be too high by mistake.

    Either way, I'm pretty sure there was a good long discussion in the draft room when he was there about taking him and they didn't just say "doesn't fit" immediately and nix the idea. They most likely weighed the pros and cons, as I've read did happened. But what do I know? They ended up, for now, with the right pick so I find it hard to complain about Floyd being rated too high when in the end they made the right choice (seemingly).
  20. dogberry

    dogberry Well-Known Member

    2,915 Messages
    215 Likes Received
    Floyd wasn't the only player with a higher rating they walked away from. Kiper gave us two first round ratings for Frederick and Williams.

Share This Page