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Are combine numbers over rated?

Discussion in 'Draft Zone' started by fortdick, Feb 23, 2012.

  1. fortdick

    fortdick Well-Known Member

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    I was jsut thinking while reading. A dangerous thing, I know. But I read about guys that have targeted numbers for their 40 times and bench press reps and wondering to my self: "Self, these guys are training and conditioning themselves to produce numbers at the combine that they would not be able to produce over the course of a season."

    While taking six weeks of intense strength training may push an additional to reps in the bench, or learning a sprinter technique that may cut two tenths of a second off you 40 time may improve your draft chances, do they really mean anything if they don't convert to playing football? I doubt that they could maintain the regime throughout the season, or utilize a technique that has no application to football.

    I would like to see more football and less Mr. Universe out of the combine.
  2. burmafrd

    burmafrd Well-Known Member

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    does a bear **** in the woods?
  3. CCBoy

    CCBoy Well-Known Member

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    Polar and Circus...:)
  4. fortdick

    fortdick Well-Known Member

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    :laugh2:
  5. Future

    Future Intramural Legend

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    I think the two mentioned, 40 and bench, are both vastly overrated. But I think stuff like vertical leap and shuttle drills are really valuable.
  6. CCBoy

    CCBoy Well-Known Member

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    :rolleyes:
  7. TheCount

    TheCount Pixel Pusher

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    I think they are overrated by the media, fans and the Raiders.

    Pretending like the workouts are completely unimportant is ridiculous though. They mean something.
  8. robert70x7

    robert70x7 Active Member

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    The bench press is the most overrated. Never once in a football game will a player have to use the muscular endurance necessary press 225 pounds over 20 times. It does not make any sense whatsoever. A better measure would be the force behind an offensive lineman's punch, or something of that sort. The more I talk about the combine, the more I hate it.
  9. Sam I Am

    Sam I Am Unfriendly and Aloof!

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    Are combine numbers overrated. That depends on who you're talking too.

    They definitely have value. To some people, combine numbers weight heavy on their draft choices. That is someone who overrates them.
  10. Sam I Am

    Sam I Am Unfriendly and Aloof!

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    In the trenches they do. For a WR? No.
  11. TheCount

    TheCount Pixel Pusher

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    The way I've heard it described, the bench is good for pointing out guys that work out regularly from those that don't.

    You can be a huge, naturally strong dude and come in and lift 225 easy, but you're not going to be able to do a lot of reps unless you've been working out regularly.

    It's part of the reason WR's, CB's and RB's don't do well. Not because they are incapable of lifting the weight but because a lot of those guys aren't gym rats and have gotten as far as they have on pure athleticism. In the NFL, obviously, that won't cut it.
  12. robert70x7

    robert70x7 Active Member

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    Give me a guy who isn't as strong, but produced just as much in college versus a guy that is a beast in the weight room and produced just the same.

    Larry Allen didn't bench 705 in college.
  13. robert70x7

    robert70x7 Active Member

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    Being able to bench press 225 pounds 49 times does not translate to the football field. There are different energy systems in use when an offensive lineman makes his initial punch, and the bout lasts anywhere from 3-6 seconds. To generate power, they are relying on creatine stored in their muscles (which is not used in bench pressing for an extended period of time). Football players will NEVER give a consistent bout of energy in a single play that is required to bench press 225 pounds over 30 times. It isn't relative.

    It could point out how serious a prospect was in preparation for the combine, but other than that it's worthless.
  14. CCBoy

    CCBoy Well-Known Member

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    Not so fast...who's benching 225 for a half century? Don't go pooping on what that actually translates into....dedication and INTENSE conditioning.

    In fact, that indicates a high level of oxygen exchange and removal of lactic acid. Not marshmellow activity at all.

    That same ability for four seconds of blow and clear...is what is demonstrated at a high level in reps. That goes to game endurance and being able to answer the bell for every play...and not just the current 'game' decisions that kill game control and dominance.

    But to transition from the college ranks to professional, isn't an on off switch. It takes settling into the mental aspects of dealing with much higher levels of weight and force as well. That takes a mental side and adjustment, but without a good foundation, just won't get accomplished AND maintained without the prior types of foundations.

    On a career basis, only beginnings are acquired based purely on athletic dynamics from body type. The grind of the sport reveals the dedications and commitments for technique and focus that what you describe as failure, would miss. And a manageable weight for all participants, is a cross comparison.

    For the record, one doesn't see squat, dead lifts, snatch, or bench competitions at the Combine as well...but that's because of limiting testing to a gross enough measureable to be manageable cross positional and individual characteristics. I don't think that I would test overhead serves at a tennis court as well, in contrast to true weight lifting ability...
  15. robert70x7

    robert70x7 Active Member

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    The same thing can be done by having the lineman run at 80% of their VO2 Max for 60 minutes and check their blood lactate levels at the end of it.

    I said that it does measure a player's work ethic, not pooping on it. I'm just saying that bench pressing 225 pounds is not a valid measure of the type of powerful moves you look for with offensive lineman.
  16. robert70x7

    robert70x7 Active Member

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    Lactic acid can not be removed within a minute of the exercise. Levels actually increase once the exercise is completed. They can not develop lactic acid and then remove it within that same minute.
  17. dallasfaniac

    dallasfaniac Active Member

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    Ok, so which players were raised too high or lowered too low based upon their combine numbers? And don't give me that junk the media always spouts about Mike Mamula. He had 29 sacks over his junior and senior years, the Eagles just took a player projected as an OLB rush linebacker in the 3-4 (his position in college) and played him with his hand on the ground as an undersized DE.
  18. CCBoy

    CCBoy Well-Known Member

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    You don't have a grasp of function here. It is with extreme conditioning that oxygen exchange improves. The LACK of oxygen at the muscle is what causes the build up of extreme amounts of lactic acid. You just disproved your own reasoning that high repetitions had no purpose what so ever. It indicates extreme conditioning as well as drive to sustain at those levels.
  19. Hoofbite

    Hoofbite Well-Known Member

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    I dunno.

    All things being equal, I'd rather have a guy who's fast and can bench the hell out of anything put on the bar than someone who is slow and can't lift a case of Ramen's.

    From a fan's perspectively they're probably incredibly overrated.

    From a team's perspective, I could see them being useful.

    Two guys who performed similarly at the college leve, who do you pick? I'll go with faster and stronger unless there is some other metric that prevents me from doing so.
  20. robert70x7

    robert70x7 Active Member

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    It measures extreme conditioning and drive (commitment in the weight room, dedication, etc.) But asking football players to bench press 225 pounds is a measure of muscular endurance, not power or strength. That was my whole point. I understand the krebs cycle and how it works, but my whole point is that people confuse the test with what it actually measures. Just because Stephen Paea bench pressed 225 49 times does not mean he is stronger than Nick Fairley. It is a measure of muscular endurance. I know guys who can't bench press 225 more than 20 times, but have a max of over 450 pounds.

    If NFL teams want to take this as a measurment of a player's dedication and motor, that's fine. But don't give me that garbage that this is a measure of a player's strength and power, because it's not. Not saying this is towards you, just in general.

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