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Clinton health plan for Americans only

Discussion in 'Political Zone' started by jterrell, Oct 18, 2007.

  1. jterrell

    jterrell Penguinite

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    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071018/ap_po/clinton_health_care

    WASHINGTON - Democrat Hillary Rodham Clinton said Thursday that immigrants living in the U.S. illegally would not be covered by her proposed universal health care plan.


    The New York senator said she supports basic health services for illegal immigrants, including hospitalization and treatment of acute conditions. But she said the magnitude of the nation's health care challenge means her universal coverage proposal would not cover the 12 million people living in the country illegally.

    "People who are here legally deserve some better treatment and acceptance in the law than people who are not here legally," she said. "These are hard choices."

    As for ways to reduce pressure on the overburdened health care system, she said she could envision using "carrots and maybe a few sticks" to motivate people to lose weight and make other behavioral changes that could help.

    Speaking at a forum sponsored by several health care organizations, Clinton addressed a range of questions on the future of Social Security and Medicare, racial and gender disparities in health care coverage and ways to encourage medical students to become primary care doctors rather than specialists.

    Most of all, there were questions about her proposed $110 billion health care plan and how it would bring order to a fractured system.

    She didn't directly address questions of whether smokers or obese people should pay more for health care but said as president she would use the "bully pulpit" to encourage healthy lifestyle choices, particularly among young people.

    Clinton, who has publicly fretted about her weight, drew laughs as she recalled competing for presidential physical fitness awards as a child.

    "We were rounded up and taken to the gym where we had to jump and run. I was horrible at it. They kept telling me to run and I'd say, 'I'm running,'" she said. "It was a very strong message to children that the president cares about your health care. I personally believed Presidents Eisenhower and Kennedy were sitting in the White House signing my certificate."

    The former first lady also spoke about her failure to enact universal coverage during her husband's presidency, assuring audience members that she would not repeat the mistakes that doomed that effort.

    Among other things, she said it had been a mistake to try and draft the plan out of the White House, and that as president she had no intention producing the specific legislation for Congress to consider.

    "I'm setting goals for the country. But I know how important it is to work out the details in consultation with the Congress," she said.

    Clinton scoffed at suggestions from Republican presidential rivals that her plan is little more than socialized medicine, calling them "old, tired accusations." But she acknowledged the need to bring a broad spectrum of interests together in order to enact her proposed plan.

    "I think we'll have a very strong coalition that will be able to make the case to Congress," she said. "Nobody will come out of this process with 100 percent of what he or she wants."

    Clinton also said the task would be made easier if more Democrats were elected to the Senate in 2008.

    "It's one of my highest priorities," she said.
  2. jterrell

    jterrell Penguinite

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    I am surprised this has drawn nary a comment.

    Guess the folks who bash this plan would rather not discuss this aspect of it.
  3. AtlCB

    AtlCB Active Member

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    There really isn't any detail about her plan in the article.
  4. jterrell

    jterrell Penguinite

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    The biggest detail is that she would not cover illegal aliens under it.
    The fact it is a universal health care plan for Americans is the biggest distinction that can be made imho. I want us to cover Americans and I want us to have a distinction between Americans and illegal aliens.

    She also stated quite clearly that any plan would have to be worked through Congress and no one person would put through a plan without compromises.

    Her lack of detail is because she pointedly states the base plan would have to be fleshed out with Congress.

    Not that it matters to anyone but this is actually a politician being honest and letting you know in advance exactly what will happen in the political process.
  5. superpunk

    superpunk Benched

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    I don't see how it's even possible. These illegals take advantage of government programs because their employers give them identification and SSN's. How do you stop that?
  6. zrinkill

    zrinkill Diamond surrounded by trash

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    What else can be said about socialism?
  7. jterrell

    jterrell Penguinite

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    If they have illegal id and are paying taxes they'd be covered but would be paying for it.

    A guy here who hasn't passed the citizenship test but is paying taxes and is a working member of the society is totally different than a guy not paying taxes with 4 kids getting free educations and free health care who will not obtain citizenship specifically because doing so would mean he starts paying taxes and for health care.

    I think we need much more severe laws for employers who de-fraud the government in order to hire illegals.

    We are going to see more and cities start deporting illegals and refusing to rent/lease to people without proper identification. We will see a reduction in this problem if we start looking at it from the standpoint of the American tax-paying citizen and not from the point of view of business.

    I would be interested in hearing th libertarian take here as they usually have a take that is neither conservative nor liberal but based on a reduction of government interference in all areas.
  8. jterrell

    jterrell Penguinite

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    In another words you didn't respond earlier because you can not read?

    Lay out for the grounds for this being socialized perhaps? Then please to compare and contrast it to other areas of our lives.
  9. AtlCB

    AtlCB Active Member

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    I wasn't attacking Clinton in this piece. I just don't think there was much information. Illegals not covered - ok, Congress to hash out details - ok

    Not much to see here.

    I'm not completely against universal healthcare. I just want see the plan. I want changes in the way government operates before I support a plan than we might regret later.
  10. trickblue

    trickblue Old Testament... Zone Supporter

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    I don't believe that for a minute. Maybe not initially, but in time...
  11. Doomsday

    Doomsday Rising Star

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    What makes it socialized is the fact that they are going to ram this down everyone's throats whether or not they want health care. I dont want to pay for health care for other people and I should have the right to not pay for health care for myself if I chose not to. I can afford to cover my own medical bills. The government needs to but out, Im tired of them dipping into my pockets and spreading my money around to people to lazy or unwilling to fend for themselves.
  12. zrinkill

    zrinkill Diamond surrounded by trash

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    If you do not believe this is socialism ..... you are the one who cannot read.

    Or you do not understand what socialism is.

    Either way .... its pretty sad on your part.
  13. zrinkill

    zrinkill Diamond surrounded by trash

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    :bow:
  14. jterrell

    jterrell Penguinite

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    So then requiring id is socialized.
    Requiring seat belts is socialized.
    How many other things fall into this category?

    Socialized is just a term neo-cons use to bash an idea they do not like.

    We are socialized already.
    You are already required to pay taxes and you do not get to decide where that tax money goes.

    You already pay for health care for the people who do not have jobs and can not afford it.
  15. BrAinPaiNt

    BrAinPaiNt Brotherhood of the Beard Staff Member

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    Tell them to stop sending money overseas to Israel. Tell them to stop sending our military to countries like Iraq.

    Tell them to stop voting themselves a pay raise.

    Tell them to stop spending tax payer money on election parties.

    Tell them to stop spending tax money on trips, medical care.

    Shame is they have the money to pay for their own medical care and yet we still pay for them. How about that for socialized medicine.
  16. zrinkill

    zrinkill Diamond surrounded by trash

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    I agree with all of this.
  17. AtlCB

    AtlCB Active Member

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    :hammer:
  18. AbeBeta

    AbeBeta Well-Known Member

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    You do know that if this happens your grocery bill -- among other things -- will skyrocket, right?

    Undocumented workers are very much the backbone of American agriculture. The idea that folks come here en masse to suck off the teat of the U.S. Government and all of its free services is just flat out racism. These folks are trying to make money to support themselves and their families just like the rest of us. The opportunities don't exist in their home countries nor is it possible for most to afford the legal process involved with legal immigration.
  19. jterrell

    jterrell Penguinite

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    My gut reaction here is to call you names:)

    But... I would quickly offer whatever I call you in regards to this position would apply to the masses.

    In a different tact let's actually look at the topic.

    from the wikipedia...
    Socialism refers to a broad array of doctrines or political movements that envisage a socio-economic system in which property and the distribution of wealth are subject to control by the community[1] for the purposes of increasing social and economic equality and cooperation. This control may be either direct—exercised through popular collectives such as workers' councils—or indirect—exercised on behalf of the people by the state. As an economic system, socialism is often characterized by socialized (state or community) ownership of the means of production.

    Now let's compare that to a universal health care system as proposed by Hillary.

    1. Hillary is not talking about the government being the employer or owner of hospitals and doctors. In another words the state would not control the means of production as socialist doctrines advocate.

    2. The system would in fact offer any American the ability to see any doctor they could afford to see. Doctor's who refuse insurance would not be booted out of the country.

    3. The requirement here for each American is to carry insurance. You will be able to choose to take on a medicaid type plan which would be cheap but offer crappy coverage and long lines or you could subscribe to a plan that Congress is offered.

    But this requirement is all that must be met.

    If you google america and socialized you will find hundreds upon hundreds of references to any universal health care plan as socialized. It's funny really that any effort to improve the coverage for our citizens be tar and feathered with a brush full of nonsense but it is.

    We are essentially the only non-third world country that refuses to have universal health care.

    McCain himself noted it costs the automakers 1700 per car in health benefits. In Japan under their universal health care plans it costs them 200. Japan opened a huge plant in Canada instead of the US to supply North American vehicles based on Canada's universal health care and of course on our crappy trade regulations which have us hemorrhaging trade deficits.

    To go another route let me show you a socialized medical plan.

    The state owns the hospitals and doctors can only work for the state.
    The citizens would not pay nor have any access to extended services. All similar services would be equal in cost and you could not choose to go to a doctor more renowned for his care in a particular area. No Dr. James Andrews for you then. Not than any of us can afford him right now but the point being the option would not even be there under a socialized plan.

    In short this is plain sophistry. It's just talk, its not accurate AT ALL.
  20. AbeBeta

    AbeBeta Well-Known Member

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    They get SSNs and pay into social security. They cannot collect on that social security, it isn't their #, it is a fake SS. Any if they are being paid on a SS card then there employers are paying federal and state taxes, they aren't getting tax returns b/c they aren't going to raise red flags based on their SS.

    So for undocumented workers in this situation, they ARE paying for services -- with less return than the average worker as they get no tax refund and don't collect on SS.

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