Dez meets Michael Jordan

Discussion in 'Sports Zone' started by JustDezIt, Feb 17, 2013.

  1. Nav22

    Nav22 Well-Known Member

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    So YOUR silly ideals of what a "competitor" should do are the standard we're going by? And the standard which LeBron's career should follow? Get off your high horse. He clearly made the best decision for his career given the lack of talent he had with him in Cleveland.

    LeBron left and they became the worst team in the NBA... when Jordan left the Bulls, they still won 55 games and were a playoff contender without him in '93-94.
    What a downright silly argument. Not that I'm surprised because I hear it from folks who don't know better all the time.

    LeBron's built like Karl Malone with terrifying speed, strength, and leaping ability. Oh, and he's also the most gifted player in the league from a skills standpoint as well.

    So what evidence do you have that LeBron couldn't handle the hard fouls from the '80s-'90s?

    LeBron takes plenty of hard fouls anyways, especially in the playoffs (you'd know this if you actually paid attention)... and takes those hard fouls from guys who were bigger, stronger, and faster than thay were in Jordan's era. The only real difference is that flagrant fouls are handed out like candy nowadays so obviously there are less flagrantly dirty fouls... but that doesn't mean guys like LeBron don't get whacked pretty good on a regular basis. He's taken vicious shots in the playoffs and gotten right back up.

    How about the fact that MJ never once had to deal with zone defense in his Bulls career since it was illegal in the NBA until MJ returned with the Wizards? Does that "hurt" Mike's case like the allegedly softer fouls "hurt" LeBron's case? Or does that road only travel one-way in your biased mind?

    LeBron's a more efficient scorer than MJ was, a better passer than MJ was, a better rebounder than MJ was, a better 3-point shooter than MJ was, and can defend FOUR positions at an all-NBA level.

    LeBron's also regarded as the better teammate between the two. Ask Steve "MJ punched me in the jaw" Kerr.

    I'm sorry that you're not able to get past the media's lionization of MJ to take a look at the evidence and form an intelligent, original opinion. Never ceases to amaze me how much the media controls public opinion.
    And I'm also sorry if you still don't know how silly it is to judge a player based on the number of championships he's won in a team sport. :laugh2:
  2. DFWJC

    DFWJC Well-Known Member

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    Really hard to compare different generational players. The only true way to measure is vs their peers in the same era.
    I mean, now days there are JAG football plays running balzing 40 times and jumping 40+ inches.

    I know, it's all in good fun--or it should be--but you really can't win these types of arguments.

    Every generation, players get bigger, stronger and faster. So 30 years ago, who knows, maybe Lebron is not as musular or explosive from all of his lifelong advanced training...or maybe 30 years later Jordan has 25 lbs more muscle and his vertical is 52 inches instead of suppossedly 48. His standing reach was 8' 10" and his highest touh was 12' 5". Sick:laugh2:
    Combine that with outerworldy body control and pure lightning quickness and it starts to sound pretty silly to say anyone was a "far" better athlete than him.
  3. Blast From The Past

    Blast From The Past Well-Known Member

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    Happy for Dez, living his dream!
  4. HoustonFrog

    HoustonFrog Well-Known Member

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    Your arguments are so of base its not even funny. I disputed and showed articles that disputed 90% of your claims when you take into account their size, etc. But you are probably 25 and don't get it. Magic Johnson just said the other day that he is hands down the GOAT. Almost every NBA vet does. There is a difference between talent when it comes to your size and just purely winning. LeBron isn't even close when it comes to the mental side of it yet. Kobe still schools him. LeBron would cry like a baby vs the old Detroit teams and Knick teams

  5. BringBackThatOleTimeBoys

    BringBackThatOleTimeBoys Benched

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    Why is some of the dissing of Michael Jordan reminding me of Kanye West?
  6. Nav22

    Nav22 Well-Known Member

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    Since we're now resorting to using other peoples' opinions, Scottie Pippen knows MJ's game far better than Magic does and he said LeBron's better.

    Jim Boeheim coached them both in the Olympics and he also picked LeBron.

    Pat Riley called LeBron the best player of all time.
    It's really not even about LeBron's obvious advantages in regards to size, speed, and strength.

    He's simply outproducing Michael.

    Shooting 56.5% from the field, well higher than MJ has ever made for a season. He's developed a better 3-point shot than MJ ever had. He's always been a better passer and rebounder than MJ and he can also guard 4 positions, which MJ obviously couldn't.
  7. HoustonFrog

    HoustonFrog Well-Known Member

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    I already blew up your rebounding myth. MJ had an average of only 1 less rebound a game..for his career and in some seasons bested LeBron's best...all the while being shorter by 3 inches and 45 lbs smaller. That's like saying Shaq outrebounded Jordan...really?

    Defense: Jordan was a 9 time First Team All Defensive Player including Defensive Player of the year. Jordan also never got outplayed by a role player in the NBA Finals. LeBron can't defend "all positions" because he has been schooled by older guards like Kobe and many other players. Being big and having an ability to do something doesn't make you better.

    Pippen's arguments got beaten to death in the article I posted earlier on here. Also

    Just because a person is a better athlete...bigger and can do a lot with their size...doesn't make them better. You are throwing out b.s. arguments with nothing to back them. Jordan had the mental edge that LeBron isn't even close to yet. It's not fantasy either. Read the ESPN piece I posted. Go youtube his games for an hour. He wouldn't lose. LeBron, until last year, quit in games.


    Oh and

    Don't get me wrong..LeBron is awesome and I like watching the guy play but unless you saw how Jordan dominated year in and year out against stiffer competition then making these arguments is silly.
  8. Nav22

    Nav22 Well-Known Member

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    Better is better, no matter how you choose to justify it.

    LeBron has the advantage over MJ in the size department? Too bad. That's part of the equation whether you like it or not.

    Yes, Shaq was a better rebounder than Jordan as well. As was Barkley, Malone, Ewing, Olajuwon, etc.
    Yes, Jordan was an all-world defender for his position.

    But so is LeBron, and guess what? LeBron can guard more positions than MJ could. You're blind if you don't see that. When the Heat play the Clippers, LeBron could guard anyone from Chris Paul to Blake Griffin.

    Again, better is better. LeBron's size/strength/speed is an asset that he takes full advantage of. MJ couldn't guard 4 positions, period. Advantage: LeBron.
    Stick to real analysis of their games and not apples-to-oranges mumbo jumbo, please.

    Two can play your game. Watch this:

    Unlike LeBron, Jordan never got to the Finals as the leader of a bad team. Didn't make it until 1991 when Scottie Pippen developed into a star.

    In fact, Jordan's Bulls teams were so loaded that without him, they still won 55 games in '93-94. Whereas the Cavs became the worst team in the NBA the moment LeBron left.
    You obviously don't pay much attention to his game. Kobe??? Hahahaha. LeBron has dominated his matchups with Kobe for several years now. Not even close between those 2 anymore.

    Did you know that players guarded by LeBron are shooting under 30% on the season? Read that sentence again.
    Oh, please.

    If you read Pippen's original comments then read his retraction, it's painfully obvious that he only backtracked because the media started to kill him for saying LeBron's better.
    So you're admitting that LeBron is the superior athlete. Good start.

    Now once you realize that LeBron's PRODUCTION is also superior to Michael's, you'll slowly start to figure out that it's simply because he's the better player.
    Hahaha "wouldn't lose"?

    What happened between 1984-1990? MJ lost over and over and over and over again... because he didn't have a good enough team to get the Bulls to the Finals.

    Or rather "Jordan wasn't good enough to carry them to the top". That was the narrative on LeBron for all those years, right?

    Team sport. Teams win rings, not individuals. Jordan couldn't win a thing until Pippen showed up, just like LeBron couldn't do it without a strong team in Miami.

    The fact that you've resorted to posting Bleacher Report articles to validate your opinion should tell you something.
  9. NIBGoldenchild

    NIBGoldenchild Well-Known Member

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    Jordan has higher averages in points, field goal percentage, steals and free throw percentage. His averages in points and free throws is by a large margin. Lebron has higher averages in assist, rebounds, and three point percentage, but none by a large margin. Furthermore, Jordan averaged less turnovers.

    Now in the playoffs, Jordan has an even bigger margin advantage in points. Less turnovers, more steals, higher free throw and better three point percentage. All Lebron has is rebounds and assists. So in the playoffs, Jordan has performed better than his regular season production while Lebron has not.

    How is lebron's production better again? Because facts don't agree with you. :cool:
  10. Nav22

    Nav22 Well-Known Member

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    LeBron is shooting 56.7% from the field this year, a figure Jordan never came close to reaching. The guy could average as many PPG as he wants. He scores around 27 PPG because he would rather get his teammates involved than to try to lead the league in scoring.

    So the PPG comparison doesn't hold water. Kobe averages more points than LeBron does because he takes more shots; it doesn't mean Kobe's the better scorer (because he's not).

    Since you're correctly including turnovers, I'll point out that Jordan committed more fouls. So those even out.

    Free throws? Advantage MJ, no question.

    So I'll give MJ the advantage in free throw shooting and in turning the ball over less.

    LeBron of 2013 has the advantages in scoring efficiency, passing, rebounding, defense (since he can guard virtually anyone on the court), 3-point shooting, and committing less fouls.
  11. NIBGoldenchild

    NIBGoldenchild Well-Known Member

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    This season is included in his career average, you can't frame the argument to suit your needs. This season isn't even over yet and you're trying to champion his fg% as if it makes up for a full career of never being a more efficient shooter than Jordan. Nice try, but no.

    I love excuses. :)

    Not only does it hold water, but it sinks your argument.

    This is a debate about Lebron and Jordan, Kobe is not relevant in this discussion. But people often deflect to a less efficient scorer to try and ignore the obvious truth that Jordan's superior FG% proves he scored more simply because he was a better scorer.

    No, they don't. Fouls for or against superstars has never been called fairly. They get away with alot and they get the whistle called if a defender breathes on them. Both of their foul averages should be higher and aren't accurate to begin with. Regardless, a foul that could go to the sideline isn't the same as GIVING THE BALL TO THE OPPONENT. There is nothing even here about fouls and turnovers. Jordan protected the ball better. Period.


    This is like when people were saying Russell Wilson should've been ROY because his last eight weeks were better than every other QB in the league. But it's an award for the best rookie for the ENTIRE SEASON, not just for the last half. Wilson didn't win because of that, and Lebron doesn't become the GOAT based off half a season.

    You keep mentioning that he can guard four positions on the court. So could Jordan. I've actually watched him guard Barkley at times, guard Ewing, and not let them score. Lebron does no different, except when it counted he didn't guard Dirk and allowed a role player like Jason Terry to disrespect and outperform him. That never happened to MJ. Disappearing in fourth quarters? Never happened to MJ. Needing a non-call foul on Durant to win games in the finals? Hmm, Jordan may have gotten away with that, lol.

    Jordan > Lebron. Not by a large margin, but no contest.

    Jordan vs. Lebron, one on one? Jordan would win every time. He's already exposed lebron's "tells", the things he'll do right before he decides to pull up for a J or drive to the hole. Jordan would eat his lunch right in front of him and make him throw it in the trash when he's done.
  12. Nav22

    Nav22 Well-Known Member

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    Then I'll clarify my argument. LeBron James is currently playing at a level that is better than Michael Jordan could ever play, and that's been the case for the last few years. I would not have made this argument before 2011.

    I'm not comparing career resumes because LeBron's career isn't close to over.

    MJ also had the huge advantage of playing in an era when zone defense was illegal. Imagine if teams could only defend LeBron man-to-man nowadays.
    I love common sense.

    LeBron shoots a higher % but scores less points and gets more assists. It's a bit silly to knock him for a lower PPG when he shoots 56.7%.

    That's like saying Quarterback A is better than Quarterback B because he passes for more yards, even though his yards/attempt and QB rating are lower than Quarterback B's.

    LeBron's scoring at a more efficient rate than MJ ever did, and doing it in an era when teams can play zone.

    Look the other way if you must. The evidence is staring you right in the face.
    Okay, so FG% is your barometer for proving who's the better scorer... but LeBron is currently shooting at a much better rate than Jordan ever did.

    So if you're being consistent, you'd have to admit that LeBron is currently a much better scorer than MJ ever was.

    Hmmm, now we're getting somewhere... so the guy is scoring better than MJ ever could, while maintaining his superiority in passing and rebounding.

    Pat Riley's right. Best of all-time.

    And by the way, I brought up Kobe because I hear the same arguments for Kobe over LeBron as I do for MJ over LeBron: rings. That's it. When all else fails, people stick to "rings" as their sole argument. Well, that and the mythical "Kobe's more clutch!" nonsense. Which is still related to his ring-count.

    So when you slowly start to notice that LeBron truly is a more productive player than MJ ever was, you'll surely revert back to the "rings" argument like all the Kobe fans. I'm sure of it.
    Fouling a shooter is just as bad as a turnover that results in a basket for the other team. Especially when the shooter was going to miss the shot. An offensive foul is a turnover. Fouls add up and the team that gets into the penalty quickest in the 4th quarter has a big advantage. And a turnover that doesn't lead to a basket by the other team doesn't hurt you.

    So it's a bit presumptuous to say fouls aren't as big a deal as turnovers. They both matter.

    And Jordan only "protected the ball better" because he didn't have to handle the ball nearly as much as LeBron does. LeBron acts as a PG for much of his time on the court, whereas the Bulls either had their PG or Pippen play that role.
    You can't possibly believe this crap.

    Guarding a power forward for one play and keeping him from scoring isn't the same as playing solid defense against them for an entire game or entire quarter.

    Jordan was 6'6" and something like 215 lbs. LeBron is 6'8" and 260. There is no debating who is better suited to guard the bigs down low. None.

    When Chris Bosh was hurt in the playoffs, LeBron basically became the team's power forward and averaged a double-double against the opponents' bigs.
    So then how did MJ lose all those playoff series in the '80s???????

    Why couldn't the Bulls even reach the Finals until 1991?????

    Why didn't MJ get past the FIRST ROUND OF THE PLAYOFFS until 1988?????

    After all, he was never outplayed and never disappeared in the 4th. He was Mr. Clutch and shot 100% from the field. He did all this while curing cancer and dancing the Charleston.

    How did he not retire with 15 rings?????
  13. zrinkill

    zrinkill Diamond surrounded by trash

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    27 year olds were 12 when Jordan left the Bulls.

    Those of us who have watched basketball for over 30 years know exactly who was the greatest of all time.

    He would eat Lebron up.
  14. zrinkill

    zrinkill Diamond surrounded by trash

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  15. FiveRings

    FiveRings Well-Known Member

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    This is a weird though, but meeting Dez probably didn't even make Jordan bat an eye. Sort of puts things in perspective
  16. Nav22

    Nav22 Well-Known Member

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    And Bob Cousy would eat Chris Paul up, right?

    Old-timers. :laugh2:
  17. ghst187

    ghst187 Well-Known Member

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    I just don't see how that would be remotely possible. Lebron is a far superior physical specimen and athlete with the same level of skill as MJ. MJ went about 210 while Lebron has 20 or more pounds on him and its all muscle. He could push MJ into the bleachers just by backing down. He also has 3 inches plus more in wingspan on him. Constant debates like this are akin to the debates about who was better Jim Brown or Barry Sanders. If Jim Brown ran against the same caliber defenses and athletes that Barry did JB would've had a tough time cracking 1,000 yards. All the love and memories of JB in the world won't change the fact that that athletes he and his fellow pros were at the time were EXPONENTIALLY inferior to what Barry was and played against and to compare JB against someone like Adrian Peterson seems almost silly. Sure JB was to his generation what BS and AP were/are, but sorry JB would've been average in the BS or AP league. Similar to what MJ would be now in the league. When MJ came up it was freakish to have his combo of size and athleticism which helped him dominate the that time. (I would also argue the entire league was down a bit because Magic and Bird and their teams were in their twilights) Now its almost par for the course and nearly every team has someone who's a freakish athlete that plays the 2 guard or 3 swing that goes btwn 6'6-6'9. Heck Dirk is 7 foot and plays the 3 most of the time. Okay, sure MJ could probably still score today, but you can't tell me he could begin to d up kevin Durant, Kobe, or Lebron, all of which have significant size advantages and every bit as much athleticism, if not more.
    Furthermore, no NBA star has ever got the star treatment as much as MJ did, he nearly created and expanded it. He got away with murder and got to shoot 20 freethrows per night. Anyway, this entire debate almost seems silly to me, MJ was the greatest of his generation leave it at that. Players have gotten bigger and better since then, same thing that has happened in every sport.
    Next up, let's compare Royce Gracie vs Matt Hughes, two diff generations of MMA fighters....oh wait they did go head to head and that was a severe beat-down.
  18. zrinkill

    zrinkill Diamond surrounded by trash

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    Michael Jordan played a lot of the same people who played Lebron.

    Ask guys like Kobe Bryant and Shaq who the greatest of all time is.
  19. Nav22

    Nav22 Well-Known Member

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    Scottie Pippen (who won 6 titles with MJ), Jim Boeheim (who coached them both in the Olympics), and Pat Riley all picked LeBron.

    But your 30 years of fandom makes you more qualified than them, right?

    And who exactly played against MJ in his prime AND LeBron in his prime? You could only be referring to ancient wash-outs like Grant Hill and Jason Kidd. :lmao2:

    Game's passed you by, old-timer.
  20. zrinkill

    zrinkill Diamond surrounded by trash

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    Pippen clarified Friday afternoon, tweeting that he does not believe James has eclipsed Jordan.
    "Don't get me wrong, MJ was and is the greatest. But LeBron could by all means get to his level someday," said Pippen

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