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Drafting another Tweener (warning: Long post here)

Discussion in 'Draft Zone' started by Clove, Mar 23, 2006.

  1. Clove

    Clove Shrinkage

    37,824 Messages
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    Just for fun, I decided to go and look at the combine stats including the player stats from 2005, and
    and decide which player would best fit our OLB need based on combine numbers and 2005 stats.
    1st off, it's hard to guage Bobby Carpenter since he missed out on a ton of drills during his pro day
    workout, so take it for what it's worth. The only OLBrs that qualified had to have a minimum height
    of 6'2 (since Parcells seems partial to 6'2+ guys) and a weight of atleast 239 pds.
    After removing all the non-natural linebackers who didn't qualify, I then took all the other linebackers
    that qualified and every defensive end in the draft and made a top 10 list in every combine non-skills drill.
    These guys finished in the top 10 out of over 80 players.
    The last thing I did was added A.J. Hawk into the mix so that I could see where the other guys stacked
    up to him. But he is not qualified in this excercise (since we have no chance in hell to get him in the draft)

    These are the top 10 who finished in 8 combine drills who qualified height/weight wise.

    40 yd dash
    1.OLB A.J.Hawk-------------4.42
    2.OLB Thomas Howard------4.42
    3.DE Manny Lawson--------4.43
    4.DE Ryan LaCasse---------4.54
    5.OLB Leon Williams---------4.54
    6.DE Kamerion Wimbley------4.61
    7.DE Mark Anderson---------4.61
    8.DE James Wyche----------4.63
    9.OLB Rocky McIntosh-------4.63
    10.OLB William Kershaw------4.63
    11.DE Bryan Copeland---- ---4.64

    10 yd dash
    1.DE Manny Lawson----------1.53
    2.DE Ryan LaCasse-----------1.56
    3.OLB A.J. Hawk--------------1.56
    4.OLB Thomas Howard---------1.56
    5.OLB Leon Williams-----------1.56
    6.DE Kamerion Wimbley--------1.58
    7.DE Mario Williams------------1.59
    8.DE Mark Anderson-----------1.59
    9.DE James Wyche------------1.59
    10.OLB Rocky McIntosh--------1.60
    11.OLB William Kershaw--------1.60

    20 yd dash
    1.DE Manny Lawson-------------2.53
    2.OLB Thomas Howard-----------2.58
    3.OLB Leon Williams-------------2.63
    4.DE Ryan LaCasse--------------2.64
    5.DE Kamerion Wimbley----------2.65
    6.OLB A.J.Hawk-----------------2.65
    7.OLB Rocky McIntosh-----------2.65
    8.DE Mark Anderson-------------2.68
    9.DE James Wyche--------------2.68
    10.DE Mathias Kiwanuka---------2.70
    11.DE Chris Gocong-------------2.70

    Verticle Leap
    1.OLB Rocky McIntosh-----------42 1/2
    2.DE Mark Anderson-------------42
    3.DE Chris Gocong---------------42
    4.DE Mario Williams--------------40 1/2
    5.OLB A.J.Hawk-----------------40
    6.DE Manny Lawson-------------39 1/2
    7.OLB Thomas Howard-----------39
    8.DE Ray Edwards---------------39
    9.DE Stanley McClover-----------39
    10.DE Kamerion Wimbley---------38 1/2
    11.OLB William Kershaw----------37

    Broad Jump
    1.DE Kamerion Wimbley--------10-9
    2.DE Mark Anderson-----------10-7
    3.DE Chris Gocong-------------10-5
    4.DE Manny Lawson-----------10-4
    5.OLB Thomas Howard---------10-4
    6.DE Jeremy Mincey-----------10-1
    7.DE Mario Williams------------10-0
    8.DE Mathias Kiwanuka--------10-0
    9.OLB Rocky McIntosh---------9-11
    10.OLB Chad Greenway--------9-9
    11.DE Brian Copeland----------9-9

    20 yard shuttle
    1.OLB A.J.Hawk---------------3.96
    2.DE Chris Gocong-------------4.08
    3.OLB Leon Williams-----------4.08
    4.DE Mathias Kiwanuka--------4.13
    5.OLB William Kershaw---------4.17
    6.DE Manny Lawson-----------4.18
    7.DE Rob Ninkovich------------4.18
    8.OLB Rocky McIntosh---------4.20
    9.OLB Chad Greenway---------4.22
    10.DE Mark Anderson----------4.23
    11.DE Julian Jenkins-----------4.24

    60 yard shuttle
    1.OLB A.J.Hawk---------------11.06
    2.DE Manny Lawson-----------11.08
    3.OLB Thomas Howard---------11.22
    4.DE Chris Gocong-------------11.35
    5.DE Rob Ninkovich------------11.37
    6.OLB Chad Greenway---------11.40
    7.DE Jeremy Mincey-----------11.57
    8.DE Mike Kudla---------------11.58
    9.DE Ryan LaCasse------------11.60
    10.DE Mathias Kiwanuka-------11.65
    11.DE Daryl Tapp--------------11.65

    3 cone drill
    1.OLB A.J.Hawk----------------6.82
    2.OLB Bobby Carpenter---------6.88
    3.DE Manny Lawson------------6.90
    4.DE Thomas Carroll------------6.92
    5.DE Mark Anderson------------6.95
    6.OLB William Kershaw----------6.95
    7.DE Dave Tollefson------------6.95
    8.OLB Thomas Howard----------6.96
    9.DE Rob Ninkovich-------------6.96
    10.DE Kamerion Wimbley--------6.97
    11.DE Jeremy Mincey-----------6.99

    The qualifiers for the next round have to have top 11 finishes in as many categories as possible.
    If a player didn't finish top 10 in atleast the 3 cone drill and the 20 yard shuttle, you did not
    qualify. Those 2 drills are essential when playing in space covering Tight Ends and running backs. If the defensive ends
    can't qualify top 10 in those 2 areas, they don't make it to the next round of stats in this excercise.

    Below are the players that qualified in all the events including both top 10 finishes in the
    3 cone and 20 yd shuttle. The OLBrs and DEs were atleast 6'2 and over 239 pds. After all tests were
    taken and non-qualifiers were removed, this was the top ten.

    1. Manny Lawson - Finished top 10 in 8 out of 8 events. In all 8 events, his average rank was 3rd
    2. A.J. Hawk - Finished top 10 in 7 out of 8 events. In the 7 events, his average rank was 2nd
    3. Thomas Howard - Finished top 10 in 7 out of 8 events. In the 7 events, his average rank was 4th
    4. Mark Anderson - Finished top 10 in 7 out of 8 events. In the 7 events, his average rank was 6th
    5. Kamerion Wimbley-Finished top 10 in 6 out of 8 events. In the 6 events, his average rank was 6th
    6. Rocky McIntosh -Finished top 10 in 6 out of 8 events. In the 6 events, his average rank was 7th
    7. Chris Gocong - Finished top 10 in 5 out of 8 events. In the 5 events, his average rank was 4th/5th
    8. Leon Williams - Finished top 10 in 4 out of 8 events. In the 4 events, his average rank was 4th
    9. Mathias Kiwanuka-Finished top 10 in 4 out of 8 events. In the 4 events, his average rank was 8th
    10. Ryan LaCasse - Finished top 10 in 3 out of 8 events. In the 3 events, his average rank was 5th/6th

    The second round of stats are for the individuals who finished top 10 and above.

    225 pd bench
    1. DE Ryan LaCasse-------------34
    2. DE Chris Gocong--------------28
    3. OLB Leon Williams-------------25
    4. DE Manny Lawson-------------24
    5. OLB A.J. Hawk----------------24
    6. DE Kamerion Wimbley----------24
    7. OLB Thomas Howard-----------21
    8. DE Mark Anderson-------------20
    9. OLB Rocky McIntosh-----------18
    10.DE Mathias Kiwanuka----------17

    Just to put this area of stats into perspective, the players that played defensive end exclusively
    are naturally supposed to have lower tackle numbers, but higher sack totals. (keep that in mind)

    Tackles
    1. OLB - A.J.Hawk-------------121
    2. DE - Chris Gocong-----------98
    3. OLB - Rocky McIntosh-------89
    4. OLB - Thomas Howard-------85
    5. OLB - William Kershaw-------76
    6. DE - Manny Lawson---------58
    7. OLB - Leon Williams---------54
    8. DE - Mathias Kiwanuka------49
    9. DE - Mark Anderson---------40
    10.DE - Ryan LaCasse----------30
    11.DE - Kamerion Wimbley------24

    Sacks
    1. DE Chris Gocong-------------23 1/2
    2. DE Manny Lawson-----------10 1/2
    3. DE Mathias Kiwanuka---------9 1/2
    4. OLB A.J. Hawk---------------9
    5. DE Ryan LaCasse-------------9
    6. DE Mark Anderson------------7 1/2
    7. DE Kamerion Wimbley---------7 1/2
    8. OLB Rocky McIntosh----------5 1/2
    9. OLB Thomas Howard----------3
    10.OLB William Kershaw----------1

    Now for some serious reality.
    Alot of people were complaining about Ware and his inability to make stops and cover.
    For all of you who don't think it's wise to carry 2 tweeners on the team on opposite sides
    of the field, I just want you to look at the top 10 finishers up top first. As you can see,
    you have a mixture of Tweeners and true OLBrs. No way could those tweeners have
    made the top 10 if they didn't have the agility/quickness/ and hip movement to move like
    a regular linebacker.
    Take in mind, there were plenty of other linebackers with better speed and agility but they
    were much too small to play the OLB position in the 3-4 so they didn't qualify. Now the last
    question is, are the 3 highest rated tweeners equiped with the instincts to play the OLB
    position in a 3-4 system? (keep that in mind - 3-4 lb, not a 4-3 lb)
    So I took the liberty of taking every starting OLB in the NFL that plays OLB in a 3-4 system
    and compared their stats in conjunction with putting up monster tackle numbers like typical
    outside linebackers put up.

    Name_____________Tackles______Sacks____INT___Passes Defended__Games Played
    DeMarcus Ware------58------------8-------- 0----------1----------------16-------
    Shawne Merriman----57------------10--------0----------4----------------15-Probowl
    Joey Porter----------56------------7---------2----------5----------------16-Probowl
    Clark Haggans--------59-----------9---------0-----------3----------------13---------
    Steve Foley----------37-----------4.5-------0-----------3----------------13---------
    Willie McGinest-------56-----------6---------0-----------4----------------16---------
    Rosevelt Colvin-------60-----------7---------0-----------2----------------16---------
    Shantee Orr----------50-----------7---------0-----------2----------------16--------
    Antwan Peek---------46-----------6---------0-----------1----------------16--------
    Scott Fujita----------53-----------2---------0-----------1----------------16--------
    Julian Peterson-------82-----------3---------0-----------5----------------15--------

    Those were the starting OLBrs for 3-4 teams in the league. If I'm missing a 16 game starter,
    just let me know.
    As you can see, these linebackers average around 56 tackles a year which is about 3 or 4
    tackles a game.
    Any body can make 3 or 4 tackles a game, but let's look at the averages for sacks/interceptions
    and passes defended.
    These NFL 3-4 lbrs averaged 6 sacks a year - that's 1 and a half sacks every 4 games.
    It's obvious these tweeners can definitely make 1.5 sacks every 4 games.
    The next stat is interceptions, and I'm not even going to waste my time on this one, it's obvious
    these guys don't get interceptions playing that position, so it's no big deal.
    The next stat is defensed passes. (knocking passes down) These NFL 3-4 lbrs defend around
    3 passes a year on average, and Lawson,Anderson, & Wimbley obviously have the agility/speed
    and hip movement to do just as good a job on Tight ends and Running backs, as the traditional
    outside linebacker. Other wise they would not have been top 10 in the league in agility/speed
    & quickness drills.
    All in all, Manny Lawson/Mark Anderson/Kamerion Wimbley, can play for the Dallas Cowboys
    and put up the exact numbers as any one of these professional 3-4 linebackers you see above.
    And obviously, Lawson is the best!!!


  2. QT

    QT Active Member

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    Nice... I want Lawson too.
  3. Jubei

    Jubei New Member

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    Really nice break down, thanks for putting in the effort !
  4. sago1

    sago1 Active Member

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    My choices all along have been Lawson/Carpenter & even Kimbley is okay but we'd have to use our first round pick to get any of them cause their gone by the time we draft in 2nd round. In fact 2-4 mock drafts Lawson picked to go before we even draft. Given importance of OLBer opposite Ware & since both Singleton (solid player but not playmaker) & Burnett (coming on by end of season), doubt Cowboys enter season with just these 2 players competing for that job.

    FS is only position not addressed in FA & it currently manned by Davis/Pile too our sorrow on quite a few occasions last year. At least at OLB position, we have 2 legit players competing for the job, which is not the case at FS. Don't see us moving Henry to FS; Newman is fine at CB but don't see Aaron Glenn as our opposite starting CB (he couldn't take the year long beating at this stage in his career).

    Believe Cowboys will draft OLB, FS/OL & OL/WR. If we can somehow pick up another 3rd rounder & 4th rounder, we could fill the 4 needed positions. If Lawson gone by the time we pick, think Cowboys could move down (if we can find trading partner/hopefully not too far down). On 2nd day we go after BPA but still fill needed spots at DT/QB/CB/OL/TE/FB. BTW: W/o knowing quality of Colts backup situation since Edge gone & not filling the position in FA, Colts might be interested in moving up if 1-2 top RBs fall to us--but that's a long way down for us to move. We'd have to get their 2nd round pick for equal value to our 18th pick. Their low 3rd & 4th isn't going to cut it.

    Actually I'd feel a whole lot better about our OL if we signed OG Stephen Neal but the Scott.com listings of FAs rank Kosier quite a bit higher then Neal so maybe Kosier could be ok but still not sold; it's just in my mind I had someone like Hutchinson replacing Allen.
  5. Woods

    Woods Active Member

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    Actually I'd feel a whole lot better about our OL if we signed OG Stephen Neal but the Scott.com listings of FAs rank Kosier quite a bit higher then Neal so maybe Kosier could be ok but still not sold; it's just in my mind I had someone like Hutchinson replacing Allen.
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    I would like Neal as well, but I don't think we're going to go after him. Hope I'm wrong though!
  6. junk

    junk I've got moxie

    9,278 Messages
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    I love what Lawson brings as a pass rusher. My only concern with him is whether he will be able to take on and shed blockers on the strong side. He did play weak side end in college and I think he'd be ideally suited to play Ware's position.

    Same goes for Wimbley/Anderson really although I consider them to be a notch below Lawson.

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