News: ESPND: Cowboys got great value on Sean Lissemore deal

Discussion in 'News Zone' started by Smashin222, Sep 15, 2012.

  1. Smashin222

    Smashin222 Active Member

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    The Cowboys locked up a starting-caliber defensive linemen through 2016 by giving Lissemore a three-year extension worth $6 million (plus incentives) with $3.1 million guaranteed. Lissemore, a high-motor player who has proven to be effective as a defensive end and nose tackle, likely would have made much more money if he waited two years to test the free agency market.

    “That’s a steal for them,” one agent not involved in the deal said.

    Jason Hatcher's contract –- a three-year, $6 million deal signed last summer -– is a heck of a bargain for a productive starting defensive end. Lissemore’s deal will be a similar steal for the Cowboys.
  2. Wood

    Wood Well-Known Member

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    I like this deal whole lot more than I liked Ratliff deal.
  3. TheCount

    TheCount Pixel Pusher

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    Ratliff's first deal or his recent deal?

    I'm not too fond of Ratliff's recent deal myself, but I get Jerry feeling that he owed him for being such a bargain early on in his career.

    I just don't like it if it handcuff's us finding another NT, or replacing him when his play starts declining.

    Particularly, I don't like that this will just further cement the teams refusal to invest highly in another NT, although Brent eased those concerns a bit with his play last week.
  4. Risen Star

    Risen Star Likes Collector Zone Supporter

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    That is excellent. We need these type of deals to offset the bad ones.
  5. Risen Star

    Risen Star Likes Collector Zone Supporter

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    I don't. That's idiotic to think if you're a GM.
  6. speedkilz88

    speedkilz88 Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like they were basing it off of Hatcher's deal then.
  7. Eskimo

    Eskimo Well-Known Member

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    That's precisely true.

    As the GM, he has to look out for the Cowboys future and not worry about the past.

    The extension has to be signed based on future play only. Now some of the future play is based on the past history of success but it has to be built with expectation of some improvement for a very young player and with some decline in the older player.

    But you should never extend a player in decline based on a season he had two years ago while he still has two years left on his current deal. That was stupidity of the highest order giving Rat that deal before the start of the 2011 season while coming off of a sub-standard 2010 season. 2011 showed that 2010 was no fluke, Ratliff is no longer dominant and he is now constantly nicked up.

    What kind of position would we now be in if we hadn't signed that deal? I argued we'd be in position to add another pass rusher to the defense next season and could spend about $10M/yr to try and get one. Instead we'll try to get Rat through two more years playing half of the time before we realize he is never going to return to his dominant days of 2007-9. I just hope that by limiting him to 30 snaps a game we get a good interior 3rd down pass rush from him.
  8. Risen Star

    Risen Star Likes Collector Zone Supporter

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    Too much truth in that post, bro.

    One of Jerry's biggest weaknesses, besides an alarming lack of ability to evaluate talent, is his loyalty to his players.
  9. dogunwo

    dogunwo Waves that make you sea-sick Zone Supporter

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    Out of curiosity, what "bad deals" do you think are currently on the team?
  10. Ultimategamer5567

    Ultimategamer5567 Member

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    I know you're talking to Risen, but the main choices are obvious.

    Marcus Spears, Orlando Scandrick, and Jay Ratliff.
  11. jobberone

    jobberone Kane Ala Staff Member

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    Spears is an ok deal. Rat I don't like but I reserve the right to change my mind at the end of the year. Scandrick I have waxed and waned on. I think they overpaid but again let's see after the years up.
  12. perrykemp

    perrykemp Well-Known Member

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    I <hope> by the end of the year Doug Free isn't lumped into that group. I have to admit, I am having some doubts.

    Having said that, there 15 games left this season and he has plenty of opportunity to prove he was worth being paid like one of the top left tackles in the game ;)
  13. wittenacious

    wittenacious Active Member

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    Good/smart extension for the Cowboys to have put together for a good player like Lissemore. Love it.

    I'd like to see us lock up Josh Brent on some kind of a similar contract extension &#8212; signed thru 2013/ UFA in 2014 &#8212; especially if he continues to play well in Ratliff's absence.
  14. 28 Joker

    28 Joker 28 Joker

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    Absolutely. That contract extension was just another example of the Cowboys getting exposed as an organization. This is just one more piece of evidence which points to the team needing a quality general manager. The Cowboys overrate and overpay while other teams are smarter in the salary cap. I wonder how other general managers would have responded to the notion of giving that big contract extension to the 2010 version of Ratliff (almost $ 20 million guaranteed). That contract was contrived out of delusional evaluating. Speaking of delusional evaluations... Orlando Scandrick's big contract fits right in there, too. There is nothing like overpaying for a 9.9 YPA nickel back. The Cowboys could use a Michael Brockers, and I'm not sold on their overall defensive line talent. They need a young stud in the interior, and he's in college now.

    It's not just Jay Ratliff's deal. Look at Miles Austin's huge deal. Austin has not played up to that big time money (overall). Fair or not, that deal cost the Cowboys $ 10 million dollars in cap space (over the next 2 years). Again, Austin's deal was based on the ridiculous Roy E. Williams mega contract and trade/lost draft picks. Austin is a good player, but the Cowboys overpaid and set the market with the Roy E. Williams deal. I noticed the Giants have not paid Victor Cruz, yet. They probably want to see Cruz do it another year. Perhaps, the Cowboys should have waited to see Austin's 2010 season. Given Austin's 2010 season, the price should have gone down quite a bit. I still contend that the Cowboys should have drafted Robert Meachem.

    There is no cover (Wade Phillips) for Jason Garrett when it comes to the Ratliff and Scandrick deals, either. Marion Barber, Roy E. Williams, and Miles Austin were on his side of the football, too. If Garrett signed off on overpaying a significantly deteriorated Ratliff and an overrated Scandrick, why am I supposed to believe that Garrett is immune from any blame (on those other bad contracts). Obviously, Garrett really liked Marion Barber, too. Austin was the star of his passing offense in 2009. Wasn't Garrett Jerry Jones' hand picked "head coach in waiting"? Why was Marion Barber ever paid like one of the best running backs in the NFL? This team needs a quality GM who will not buy into the sunshine, produced by coaches or by other members of the front office. They need an objective, trained set of eyes. Would all of the scouts who were for the Roy E. Williams trade, please raise your hands?

    Based on Jason Garrett's comments about Anthony Spencer, get ready to see Anthony Spencer join Doug Free in the overpaid category. You will most likely have another overpaid player in Spencer, especially after Rob Ryan declares him the ultimate. Ideally, Free should have received Colombo's second deal or that type of money. However, the Cowboys never let Free compete for the RT position before they re-signed Colombo at the end of 2008. They overrated Colombo, imo. Free was clearly ready to play RT when he took over in 2009, and he probably should have been given the opportunity to win the RT spot before 2009. The Eagles drove up the price in free agency, but they wanted him to play RT (for a left-handed QB).

    Current Overpaid Players/Bad Contracts for the Cowboys:

    1. Miles Austin
    2. Jay Ratliff
    3. Doug Free
    4. Orlando Scandrick

    Despite his limitations as a pass rusher, Anthony Spencer is destined to join this list, imo.

    This Lissemore deal looks good for them, but they are not getting a cookie from me due to past colossal mistakes.
  15. CowboysYanksLakers

    CowboysYanksLakers Well-Known Member

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    Good deal for the Cowboys... He's a very good player.
  16. Eskimo

    Eskimo Well-Known Member

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    Scandrick was really overpaid last year before the start of the season in TC. Now my understanding of that deal is it was based on what he was doing in practice under Rob Ryan's eyes. Ryan probably told Jerry and Garrett that Scandrick had a very bright future playing in his schemes and we better sign him now before he breaks out and the price goes way up. Thankfully it wasn't a mega-contract and I wouldn't be surprised if he were released next year if we find a good candidate for the #3 CB slot.

    As for Doug Free I do think he is overpaid but probably not massively so. He probably should be a $5-6M/yr player based on his play from 2009-11. He is getting $8M/yr but it is only over 4 years so the size of the deal isn't that bad and we can easily recover from releasing him. Having said that I do think Free's struggles are overstated last year for the most part and we have to remember that many Tackles will put up lousy numbers facing the competition he saw last year: JPP, Calais Campbell, Osi, Tuck, Cole, Babin, Orakpo, Ryan Kerrigan, Justin Smith, Robert Quinn, Chris Long, Cameron Wake, Jason Taylor, Mark Anderson, Cliff Avril, Kyle VandenBosch, Adrian Clayborn.... It is a tough job, he had to play with 4 different OGs and he just didn't seem right last year. He had quite a good first week of the season going against Tuck and Osi but struggled a bit with JPP but so does everyone. I think Free will be okay and we won't regret his deal much. By the time Tyron gets extended Free's deal will be done and we'll need to search for a cheaper alternative.

    Spears' deal isn't so bad because he only got a $3.5M signing bonus. So even if he is cut after next year the cap hit is only $2.1M in dead money so he has to earn his keep to stay here. His salary is only $2M next year so his cap number is $2.7M. The team would probably waive him if a promising youngster needed the spot because they wouldn't make it to the practice squad.

    The real bad contract is Ratliff's. The main reason his contract is so bad is that he wasn't outperforming it to a great extent anymore. He had two whole years left on his first extension and was coming off a bad year. There was zero need to re-do that deal. Maybe you feel bad for Ratliff so you open the deal in mid-season if he is back to his All-Pro form but you can't pay him in 2013 (first year of his extension) based on what he did back in 2009.

    Ratliff was given $18M signing bonus with that extension ($3.6M/yr pro-rated). His salaries, cap numbers are as follows:

    2012: 1.6M 5.6M
    2013: 5.0M 8.6M
    2014: 5.0M 7.0M
    2015: 5.5M 7.5M
    2016: 6.0M 8.0M

    If Ratliff is released after the 2013 season as I predict he will count $2M against the 2014 cap and then $4M against the 2015 cap.

    If Ratliff is released after the 2012 season he will count $2M against the 2013 cap and $6M against the 2014 cap.

    I am mostly happy that right now it looks like Josh Brent can play NT pretty well at least on running downs. It'd be nice if he could get a bit more push when rushing the passer and this may eventually come for him. He looked stout in there seemed to be a force in the middle against the run. If he keeps this up he should probably be given a Lissemore type deal in mid-season so that we can keep some depth in the middle. It can be hard to find a decent NT as many college kids fail in the transition to the NFL as it requires a lot of mental toughness and a high motor to play there.

    So if we start to see more deals like extending Brent, Lee and Church while passing on Anthony Spencer and Mike Jenkins (for a mega deal) it will show the FO finally understands how to manage its cap space.
  17. MichaelWinicki

    MichaelWinicki "You want some?" Staff Member

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    Agreed. I didn't care for the contract extension either. However Ratliff won't see most of that money.
  18. Sarge

    Sarge Red, White and brew... Staff Member

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  19. ravidubey

    ravidubey Active Member

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    Ratliff performed at a high level for a few years. More than what we had any right to expect from a 7th round pick.

    Funny how New England and Pittsburgh seemed to have such long term defensive success by placing an emphasis on the defensive line early and often. Dallas drafts them, well, late and very infrequently.

    We don't need studs up front, because... uh, well... er... WE'RE DALLAS, that's why.
  20. Future

    Future Intramural Legend

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    A lot of people like him, and I'm not sure why. But Lissemore and starting-calibre don't belong in the same sentence imo.

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