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Free and the coaches film

Discussion in 'Fan Zone' started by jobberone, Apr 5, 2013.

  1. brooksey1

    brooksey1 Well-Known Member

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    No grousing here Jobber, I can assure you of that. My point is you're breaking down film and pointing out sacks and penalties but seem to down play the missed blocks and pressures if the play turns out OK. If Doug Free gets thrown 3 yards back on the snap but Romo hits Dez for a TD...there is still a problem with Doug Free. Romo escaped that time but Romo saw that, Romo is thinking about that, the d-lineman is thinking about it plus both sides up in the booth saw it. It has a lot of consequence mentally plus it impacts future plays and formations, scheming etc.

    You are not grading the film correctly, offensive lineman are not graded or judged in the way you describe and your doing a 16 part series. Unless you have played the o-line or coached it....then maybe you should take the words of someone who has and understand it more.

    I'm not sure what YOUR point is on the thread if we can't have a two way discussion.
  2. jobberone

    jobberone Right turn Clyde Staff Member

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    I don't have any problem with this post. I just didn't know where you were getting the idea that I was giving him a pass on the pressures or anything else. There have been some gifs thrown up that are just not fair as they don't show the entire play. One has him being knocked back a couple of steps. That is unusual for him in that he didn't even make an attempt to block the guy although he has certainly had problems with the bull rush. That play was a quick out to the other side and I don't think he was ready for the DE, didn't get the count right or whatever. Now you may gig him for that or you may look at his entire body of work and say that is very unusual for him and not representative of his normal effort. Just because it doesn't affect the play is not dismissive but there is a difference in a negative play and one where he didn't look good blocking but still carried out his assignment. When something happens and Romo has to adjust, move or hurry then I try to report that. Otherwise I'll just say he struggled with a few pass blocks today etc.

    I'm trying to give everyone an idea of how well or poorly this guy played in general. I never claimed I was 'breaking film down' esp professionally. I've played the OL but have said twice I didn't do so consistently and most of the coaching I've gotten for the OL has been listening to other coaches teach the position. I've never said I wasn't taking into account plays that he could have executed better or ignoring pressure. If I say he had trouble with this play where he was bullrushed but it didn't alter Romo's play then that's all it means. It doesn't mean I think I can dismiss that completely. That's others taking that slant.

    You guys might want to think about lightening up here a little bit. Even though I'm not an expert on the OL I think I can give people a general idea about someones play given those parameters. If you think it's worthless you're welcome to say so but saying it once in a concise sentence is all that's necessary.

    If you have more expertise in this area then you should put your own assessment in your own thread out there for everyone. There's never harm in getting more than one opinion. I'll certainly read it.

    Speaking to all, if you think Free is so bad then I have no idea what you think of the rest of the OL. Now that's through the last game I did with the caveat they have all looked pretty good on isolated plays and in particular in certain games....say the Baltimore game. It hasn't been lost on me that Costa was lost.

    Free so far looks pretty average with significant problems in certain areas. It's a no-brainer to say we can upgrade this position. However, I thought before doing this he was much worse and that OT was an absolute necessity to address FIRST. I'm not currently feeling that way. My impression is the interior MUST be addressed and tackle should be if possible. There are tackles available in the 2nd thru 4th who can probably help. I no longer think tackle is the priority on the OL. Now that's not saying it doesn't need to be addressed just not a greater need than the interior. Obviously if someone falls then you take him and BPA yada. I reserve the right to change my mind after viewing the last few games.

    Hope this helps.
  3. mschmidt64

    mschmidt64 Member

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    Free was a middle of the road player on the worst run blocking OL and one of the worst pass blocking OLs in all of football. On a decent line, he would have been the worst player and it wouldn't have even been close.

    He was saved from being the worst OL in Dallas because of pathetic efforts from Bernadeau and the season long revolving door at center.

    Tyron Smith and Livings were both better than Free, though Livings wasn't really any good either.

    Smith was not great himself but he was definitely our best OL.

    Only if you are comparing him to the rest of our ridiculous OL. He was not an average starting tackle, league-wide, last year by any measurement.

    His season performance earns him an F and an outright release (due to his insane salary) if he is getting more than the league minimum, if our front office actually knew what it was doing.
  4. jobberone

    jobberone Right turn Clyde Staff Member

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    We all get you don't agree with me on much of anything. Is there any particular reason why you keep bringing it up? Your opinion and my opinion are different. So we agree to disagree. I'm not comparing Free to any other player in the league. He just looks very average compared to my idea of a NFL tackle having watched the league since the late 50s. Now that's eyeball and not stats although his stats last year are pretty average as well. If you have something to back up your views then let's hear it. Otherwise it's your subjective opinion against mine plus some stats here in the thread. So help us understand why you feel the way you do.
  5. jobberone

    jobberone Right turn Clyde Staff Member

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    Dallas at Cin Week 14

    Pretty good game we pulled out with a last sec FG. Both teams played well although I thought Cin played a little better they just didn't have a Tony Romo. Cin created some problems with pressure esp in the third quarter which they won handily IMO. They sent blitzes and stunted a lot and again the interior had trouble with that. We gave up 3 sacks and they 5. 24-49-1TD Dallas and 20-146-0 Cin. Romo 25-43-268-1-1 Cin 20-33-206-1-1. One TO each. Fairly even game.

    Parnell rotated some with Free this game but not equally. Some series each early then some spots but Free got the majority of snaps. He had his usual game doing ok in the run game nothing to write home about and gave up no sacks. Parnell gave up one sack but someone got thru the interior and ran Tony right into Parnell's guy who he had blocked pretty well IMO. Living's gave up one but that was a gang tackle sack outside the box. Tony just isn't that fast. They caused some problems esp in the third and Tony was throwing and ducking a lot. In the fourth they eased up on the stunts and blitzes and Tony had more time to pass and he hurt them.

    Parnell looks stronger, quicker, more athletic and has better feet. He just needs another TC, preseason and more snaps. Right now I think by the time the season rolls around and if Free is still here, he will win the job assuming another tackle from elsewhere doesn't. Parnell is also stronger in the running game and doesn't just seal blocks but moves his guy more often than Free.
  6. mschmidt64

    mschmidt64 Member

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    I don't know about that. Probably should leave it at "I don't agree with you on this" for right now.

    You made a new post led off with "speaking to all." I am one of "all" aren't I?

    And then it posed what was basically a question in "I wonder what you think of the rest of our OL."

    I was putting it in context for you from my perspective (and most people's perspective).

    That's the truth.

    No, I don't agree to that.

    If I came on here and said that Emmitt Smith sucked and was entirely a product of his OL, I don't suspect anyone would "agree to disagree" with me; I'd be berated for having a clearly unsupportable opinion that is not based in reality.

    You should be. Any other comparison is worthless. He shouldn't be judged against your idea of what a good offensive tackle was in the 1950's or whatever.

    In today's league (meaning, compared to his contemporaries), Doug Free played horribly by every standard last year.

    He gets a failing grade.

    He was benched, dude. He didn't get benched because he was average. He sucked.

    There is no other way to interpret his performance. It wasn't average.

    Anyone who says it was average is incorrect.

    No, his stats are not average, they are bad. Not that there are a whole lot of stats out there for OTs.

    I watched every game that you did just as often as you did and yes, I often focused on Doug Free. I don't need the All-22 tape to see anything differently.

    I don't know what you are watching when you get all the way to the Cleveland game before giving Free a "poor" grade. In particular, your grading of Free as "average" in Tampa Bay is delusional, simply put.

    Someone already posted a handful of GIFs of the times that Free was absolutely dominated or completely screwed up in that game. Your rebuttal to those GIFs, from my reading, seemed to be that "Well that's only a handful of plays."

    Which makes me question your integrity on this grading. If a QB only throws 4 interceptions, well, that was only a handful of plays too. You are either forgetting or deliberately ignoring the fact that the best offensive tackles in the game today do not even get their butt kicked like that once a game. For a tackle to blow up 6 different plays with his mistakes is inexcusably bad, regardless of whether Romo improvising bailed the team out. Free in effect by himself disrupted nearly 15% of every passing play we called that day.

    If every offensive lineman screwed up at the same rate Free did in the Tampa game, 30 passing plays would have been completely derailed out of the 40 or so we attempted. That would be unprecedented bad pass protection. It would be High School JV bad.

    Free wasn't much better in a handful of other games during the year as well, though I think Tampa was one of the worst he played.

    You cannot credibly give him an average grade for either the Tampa Bay game or the season on the whole. Doug Free in 2012 was not anywhere close to an average tackle. In fact, I doubt he was even among the top 64 tackles, meaning he completely fails as a starter, not even ranking among where the last ranked starter should be (if there are 32 teams, with 2 starting tackles per team, the last ranked starter should be 64th obviously).

    Doug Free's 2012 grade: F.

    F minus, even.

    Pages of analyzing Doug Free's play could be very informative and interesting; but it was not average. If you think it was, you have very low standards.
  7. jobberone

    jobberone Right turn Clyde Staff Member

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    I certainly wasn't giving you an invitation but if your intention is to 'berate' me then consider it done. Since you've accomplished that then there's no need to belabor it with continued bashing. If you don't have anything new to add then perhaps you can stop derailing the thread with your constant bashing.
  8. TwentyOne

    TwentyOne Well-Known Member

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    Free was not bad every single snap. In fact the ones he was benched he look really good sitting there. :p:

    Sorry no offense. You made a good post. I just couldn't resist.
  9. TwentyOne

    TwentyOne Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for your post and the work you put in.

    That's a very good way to evaluate a player (Free).
  10. MichaelWinicki

    MichaelWinicki "You want some?" Staff Member

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    You're very welcome TwentyOne! :)
  11. mschmidt64

    mschmidt64 Member

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    It's not my intention to berate; I'm just saying there is no credible way to support grading Free out to average in 2012. I wouldn't expect anyone to respect my opinion if I said that Quincy Carter was an average quarterback in 2002.

    Sorry if you feel this way, but Free was not even an average tackle in 2012. There's really no other conclusion that is worth discussing.

    I'm not "derailing" the thread any more than you are "silencing" anyone who would question you. I am saying your analysis of Free being average is dead wrong. If we aren't allowed to disagree then no point in even having a message board. I got into this thread to support the insightful poster who clearly and unequivocably proved that Free was beyond-words horrible in that TB game.

    If you are going to argue against that fact, prepare for people to question it.
  12. xwalker

    xwalker Well-Known Member

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    Good post.

    I think that Free was OK in sacks and QB hits but terrible in pressures because of Romo's ability to evade the pass-rushers.

    I can only imaging how many of those 41 pressures would have turned into Sacks or QB hits if Romo was replaced with a Statuesque type QB.
  13. burmafrd

    burmafrd Well-Known Member

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    I think Romo's houdini moves probably save at least a dozen sacks a year.
  14. birdwells1

    birdwells1 Well-Known Member Zone Supporter

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    If I tell you that a player was demoted from full time starter and the team asked him to take a pay cut or be cut, what would you think the team thought of this players performance?
  15. FuzzyLumpkins

    FuzzyLumpkins The Boognish

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    Give me a break. It's an opinion and grandstanding on your own valuation of 'bad' versus 'average' is fun but those types of adjectives mean different things to different people.

    His opinion is different than yours. He is not saying that your opinion is invalid. It should be obvious that he has stated he acknowledges and respects it but just wants you to stop making the discussion about him or his motives.

    You have done really nothing to contribute to the discussion of how Free actually performed. What you have done is repeatedly stated that you think that Free played awful in the TB game, that everyone should be able to see it and if people have been unable to see it then they are stupid or have an agenda.

    I could go on about how ' supporting your position with posturing and invoking the bandwagon posits nothing but all jobber has done is acknowledged the difference to that opinion and said that you simply disagree. He then recommends to agree to disagree but you won't have any of that.

    Just more nag nag nag nag nag nag nag and you don't even talk about the actual play you talk gross generalities. you could save a lot of time by writing 'Free is awful' in your sig. maybe contributing points as to why he sucks might help.

    xwalker doesn't need your help and being the yappy dog that contributes nothing new beyond what x has already contributed is going to have you see an outcome you are not going to like very much.
  16. jobberone

    jobberone Right turn Clyde Staff Member

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    Let's address the main issue first. This board is here for the members to discuss the Dallas Cowboys primarily. There has to be room for debate and differing opinions are inevitable, informative and encouraged. So there is no 'silencing' on this site.

    My objection to some of your posts is you have repeatedly said the same thing over and over and some have been bashing. I have defended my stance on the gifs and the TB game as well as overall. Obviously we are never going to agree on this. It serves no purpose for you to continuously call me out on this when you've made your objections known and we've addressed it. That's where my mentioning it being on the edge of being harassing and annoying comes from and which is not encouraged on this site. I will never use my moderator privileges to stamp out disagreement nor would I even address clear guideline violations in a thread I've created and have made an investment in. That would be for other staff members to address if at all. It's not my call.

    Now, if you want to point to some new and real evidence for us to discuss then that's an opportunity for everyone to share in a debate. That does not mean saying what you've said in a new way but bring up some actual data to discuss say like Winicki did.
  17. visionary

    visionary Well-Known Member

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    Hmmmm... isnt every new post you make about another game new evidence to discuss?

    why are you upset if he responds to your next post (i.e. new evidence)?
  18. AMERICAS_FAN

    AMERICAS_FAN Active Member

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    Hey jobberone, I'm not trying to get in the middle of your conversation with mschmidt64 - but you did open the floor to new topics, so here goes:

    In your evaluations of Doug Free, are you seeing a trend that, when Free plays better, Witten seems to have better days as a receiver?

    I ask because I think the QB-TE dynamic is the cornerstone of this offense; get that going and the whole offense opens up.

    If solid RT contributes to that - because if the RT blocks better then the TE can be used more as a receiver than a blocker - then I think it speaks volumes to Dallas' real needs along the OL.

    Up until now, all of the experts are saying that Dallas' real need is within the OL interior; however, if improving the RT position is what will free up the TE and domino-effect to opening up the rest of thr offense, then I think upgrading RT is the more pressing OL need.

    Thoughts?
  19. jobberone

    jobberone Right turn Clyde Staff Member

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    I didn't say I would be. I will remind you and others that we're here to discuss Doug Free and not other members.
  20. jobberone

    jobberone Right turn Clyde Staff Member

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    This is a great topic. You don't have to apologize about introducing a related topic. Thread drift is not a problem as long as its useful and somewhat related. And I hope I haven't made some feel like they have to walk on eggshells either.

    I have noticed them going big on the strong side a fair amount this year. Particularly with the Wash game. It seems they go more this route rather than use two backs or a back and an H Back for protection. I have not looked at stats for this and wouldn't know where to begin finding that so it's an educated guess. They'll stick another fat body over there beside Free and put Witten or Phillips in line with them. Sometime Witten blocks and others he chips or just releases into pattern. They don't always put people out there to help Free though. Even the TB game he was mostly isolated. Even though Free looked poor at times blocking the DE it didn't disrupt the play often. When Tony is being pressured too much then Garrett seems to go quick patterns and max protection which shouldn't surprise. Sometimes that's two TEs and the other various combos vs the extra lineman. When Witten lines up beside Free alone he doesn't stay in a lot but I have no figures just a general impression (and the number of receptions by Witten). When Witten is matched up on a DE he has his share of problems. And often enough Free is looking in to help the OG which I understand but Witten doesn't appear to be that dependable blocking wise with many DEs.

    The Wash game was different than the other games in general. They were doing a lot of stunting and most of the jailbreaks were up the middle. Wash was committed to making Tony throw quickly and getting pressure. They used Free to help inside a lot from those big strong formations and used another lineman who lined up outside Free to handle the outside pressure or redirect stunts inside. Witten at times stayed in and blocked as well.

    Before I did this I was certain Dallas needed to address tackle. I had no confidence in Free at all and little for Parnell. I'm still concerned but not nearly as before. I think the experts have it right in that the interior must be addressed first. I'm not prepared to comment on who needs to be replaced as I just didn't concentrate on individual players in the interior. I have been watching that more the last couple of games I watched. If I was forced to make an off the cuff remark about the interior last year AC (after Costa) then I don't like any of them.

    Now before anyone jumps on this as a measure of confidence in Free then hold off. I haven't finished watching all the games number one and I'm not going to endorse Free period. I'll just say thru the last game I watched the tackles are not as big a problem as the rest.

    Here are Free's numbers. MichaelWinicki put some up and these may be basically the same but hopefully the format will help to reinforce his stats.

    Regular Season Stats

    Career Offensive Line Stats
    Year Team G GS Pen Yds False Start Holding Sacks Allwd Yds
    2007 Dal 1 0 0 0 0 0 0.00 0.00
    2009 Dal 16 7 4 30 2 2 1.00 5.00
    2010 Dal 16 16 9 55 7 1 5.00 26.00
    2011 Dal 16 16 10 75 5 5 9.50 78.50
    2012 Dal 16 16 13 90 8 5 7.00 54.50
    Totals 65 55 36 250 22 13 22.50 164.00

    Here are Jason Peters considered a good tackle:

    Regular Season Stats

    Career Offensive Line Stats
    Year Team G GS Pen Yds False Start Holding Sacks Allwd Yds
    2004 Buf 5 1 2 15 0 1 0.00 0.00
    2005 Buf 16 10 3 20 2 1 1.50 11.50
    2006 Buf 16 16 6 31 5 0 2.00 16.00
    2007 Buf 15 15 6 35 5 1 6.00 41.00
    2008 Buf 13 13 8 55 4 2 11.50 106.50
    2009 Phi 15 15 9 68 6 1 6.00 66.00
    2010 Phi 13 13 7 50 3 3 2.00 14.50
    2011 Phi 14 14 6 35 5 0 2.50 10.50
    Totals 107 97 47 309 30 9 31.50 266.00

    Here is Trent Williams:
    Regular Season Stats

    Career Offensive Line Stats
    Year Team G GS Pen Yds False Start Holding Sacks Allwd Yds
    2010 Was 14 13 6 45 3 3 11.50 100.50
    2011 Was 10 10 7 65 2 4 3.00 33.50
    2012 Was 16 16 6 40 4 2 5.50 43.00
    Totals 40 39 19 150 9 9 20.00 177.00

    I don't have the pressure stats and I'm a little cautious about where and who these come from. They aren't always easy to assign. Same thing for sacks although less so. You really have to see the entire play to get a feel for who mucked up what. And then you sometimes can't tell. I will say a general trend in the wrong direction is cause for concern and that's what you have with Free. And by eyeball he is not playing as well the last two years as he did in 2010. So there is some truth lying within the stats IMO.

    Last year Dallas was 11th in the league in adjusted sack rate at 5.8% with 36 sacks given up. Interestingly runs off RT were almost a 1/2 yd less. I'm not certain what to make of those stats. My impression is the OL is worse than #11 and Tony makes them look better by escaping pressure so much. That's subjective but seems to be more the consensus than not.

    Now to answer your main question. Sorry, I don't know. Nothing seems to stop Witten and I think Tony looks at him too often at times. OTOH, sometimes that's all that is there. I'll try to look at Witten and Free together and get back to you but it'll have to be from here forward for now.

    Excellent question.

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