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Gil Brandt on Matt Johnson

Discussion in 'Draft Zone' started by bleedin' blue, Apr 29, 2012.

  1. speedkilz88

    speedkilz88 Well-Known Member

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    :laugh2: All you have is your opinion and it sucks then you complained about the board because it didn't agree with your sucky and disrespectful opinion on a legend. Talk about bringing nothing to the table.
  2. JakeCamp12

    JakeCamp12 Well-Known Member

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    Well in 1987 he drafted Kelvin Martin, Kevin Gogan and Ron Francis...so right now he drafted 5 starting players on the Cowboys dynasty teams as well as drafting Walker who we re-built the entire franchise on. Again, Gil has forgotten more about the NFL than any of us will ever know.
  3. Eskimo

    Eskimo Well-Known Member

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    This is from his Wiki:

    Career

    Brandt served as the Cowboys' chief talent scout since the club's birth in 1960. He had served as a part-time scout for the Los Angeles Rams under General Manager Tex Schramm in the 1950s. When Schramm took command of the newly formed Dallas franchise in 1960, Brandt was one of the first people he hired. Schramm, Brandt and Coach Tom Landry formed the triumverate which guided the Cowboys for their first 29 years.

    Brandt helped pioneer many of the scouting techniques used by NFL clubs today, such as computer analysis of prospects (especially those from small colleges), converting basketball players and track athletes into football players and finding top free agent rookies, such as Drew Pearson, Cliff Harris, and Everson Walls. Brandt was also one of the first NFL talent scouts to look outside the United States for potential players. For example, he looked to Latin American soccer leagues for kickers.



    I think one of the things Brandt brought to scouting was science like measuring different athletic attributes and I think he was one of the founders of the 40 yard dash.

    Others who are older than me and know the history better than me might be able to shed more light on this but he was a visionary. He was one of the main brains that allowed the Cowboys acquire the talent to pull of 20 straight winning seasons. In that whole time they only had one franchise QB and they only got him after 5 years in the armed forces and the rust that it entailed.
  4. Plankton

    Plankton Well-Known Member

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    Brandt did not invent the 40 yard dash as a measurement for scouting - that was Paul Brown. Schramm was the one who pushed for computerizing the data used by the Cowboys. Brandt's strengths were the information network that he had, especially with the smaller schools. He also demonstrated a true skill in the fishnet approach, with inviting many undrafted rookies, sometimes over 100, to camp. He truly understood odds, and how to make them work personnel wise.

    When the draft moved, it allowed other teams to scout more effectively (as they now had more time), and he never adjusted to the fact that other teams were now better prepared. The same advantages that led to the Dirty Dozen dried up when the draft moved later in the year (it's really striking when you analyze the results). Brandt was a remarkable organizer who was blessed with a photographic memory, but his last years in Dallas were not a testament to an all time great. It was a testament to someone who lost his Midas touch completely.
  5. Plankton

    Plankton Well-Known Member

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    Seriously, of all the time I have read this board, I have yet to read an insightful post from you. And, you have nothing to refute what I posted except name calling.

    It's expected behavior.
  6. BraveHeartFan

    BraveHeartFan We got a hat. I want a ring.

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    And you're clearly the standard to which other posters should strive to be, right? Telling the rest of the board it's sad because they don't agree with your opinion.


    I think you made some excellent points. But the focus is lost on that because you decided to go the way of complaining about others for not agreeing with you.
  7. Plankton

    Plankton Well-Known Member

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    I have no issue with people disagreeing with me. None at all. The bigger issue I have is when people resort to name calling and disagreement for reasons related only to not speaking in glowing tones about a Cowboy or Cowboy related personnel.

    Your response was certainly civil, and I see your point.
  8. Zardo76

    Zardo76 New Member

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    Gill is on sirius nfl radio:star:
  9. honyock

    honyock Well-Known Member

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    He's a pleasure to listen to on satellite. The guy must have a near-photographic memory, and he it's amazing the amount of information he can call up about even late round prospects.

    Nice to hear he was aware of and positive about Johnson.
  10. Hostile

    Hostile It Has Been Fun Zone Supporter

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    I have more respect for your knowledge than anyone on this forum. I have told multiple people that I consider you to be the smartest fan on this forum as it pertains to the History of this team. That includes me, and I am no slouch on our History.

    But I have to tell you the sad thing is this sentence and your attitude. Pointing fingers of blame at the forum cheapens your message. I realize it is done merely because you call another forum home and we are an interloper, but that also cheapens your message because it means what you said was out of spite, not knowledge.

    I doubt you care since this is coming from me, but I'm saying it anyway. You do with the information whatever you wish, but I personally hope you learn from it because the backlash you got was well deserved.

    Oh, and if you can find me any talent evaluator who can equal Gil Brandt's long term success I am all ears. If you can find me one who never missed on picks I am all ears.
  11. SDogo

    SDogo Not as good as I once was but as good once as I ev

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    So basically if I understand Plankton we are going to burn the guy at the stake for the same thing that has claimed many of the greats such as our own Tom Landry. Age and progress and the effect age has on keeping up with the demands.

    Got ya.

    Being a PSU fan and JoePa supporter I find something that was said about Joe late in his career that could apply to Gil and his evaluation in this case. It was said on a week to week hustle Joe struggled to keep up with the game but if you gave him time to prepare at his pace such as before a bowl game he could still coach them up with the best of them. I could only assume with out the demands of scouting 350+ prospects and only being asked to recall as needed Gil could evaluate the best of them under the table. Just as I'm sure he was asked to do in this situation.
  12. jobberone

    jobberone Right turn Clyde Staff Member

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    This.
  13. Rockytop6

    Rockytop6 Well-Known Member

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    It is reported that he was the first to use computers in evaluating talent for the draft.
  14. shaketiller

    shaketiller Member

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    A quick note in defense of Gil Brandt, who really requires no defense: While it's true that poor drafting played a role in the eventual decline of the Landry-era Cowboys, it really is an oversimplification to imply that Brandt "lost it."

    Consider that from 1978-1988 the Cowboys with Brandt leading the scouting department chose a total of 21 players who appeared in at least 100 NFL games. Over those 11 drafts Brandt and the Cowboys found nearly two players per year who would enjoy NFL careers of more than six years in length based on a 16-game season. In all but one of those drafts (1982) the Cowboys found at least one such player.

    One major contributor to the team's apparent lack of draft success: Some of the better players chosen had strong careers in other uniforms. Todd Christensen, Mike Wilson, Mike Walter are three examples. Brandt identified them as good NFL prospects. The coaching staff or circumstances dictated that they enjoyed their careers elsewhere.

    It's also true that the Cowboys had a remarkable run of truly poor luck. Anyone who saw Mike Sherrard and Robert Shaw play could see that those guys were destined to be Pro Bowl caliber stars. Shaw might have been the best center Dallas ever drafted. Sherrard was as good a deep threat as any Cowboys player this side of Bullet Bob. Injuries cut short their careers. Beyond those two Billy Cannon Jr. gave all the appearances of being an upper-level NFL linebacker but also saw his career ended -- like Shaw's, in its infancy.

    Cowboys draft choices in those 11 years played in a collective 21 Pro Bowls, but Christensen recorded five of those with the Raiders. The Cowboys identified him as a great TE, but he refused the move from fullback, which prompted a trade. I wouldn't lay that one off on Schramm.

    It's also notable that Jim Jeffcoat was never voted to a Pro Bowl, though he was one of the most consistent pass rushers the Cowboys ever had. He was also a gifted playmaker.

    Finally, after a period of time in which the Cowboys truly did stumble in the war room, Brandt appeared to find his legs once more. From 1985 through 1988, the Cowboys chose Herschel Walker, Kelvin Martin, Kevin Gogan, Michael Irvin, Ken Norton and Chad Hennings, all key contributors to the great Super Bowl run -- Walker in an ironic fashion.

    The Cowboys also chose Sherrard in 1986. While I have mused many times on how great his career might have been had injuries not intervened, it might be that Dallas wouldn't have spent a first round pick on Irvin in 1988 had Sherrard not become a question mark. We'll never know. I do think a healthy Sherrard paired with Irvin would have been recalled as one of the greatest WR pairings of all-time.

    Don't get me wrong. The Cowboys made some awful missteps in the war room from 1978-1988, but there is plenty of evidence to suggest Brandt could still identify top-quality NFL talent. They missed at the quarterback position, in part because Danny White didn't manage to climb the mountain at least once and get to a Super Bowl, which given that he followed Staubach might have caused the coaches to abandon him more quickly than they otherwise would have. In any case, White's failure to win the big one seemed to take some life from him in the latter stages of his career, and the Cowboys hadn't prepared an adequate successor.

    It's also true that Staubach retired while still at the top of his game as a result of concussions.

    During reasonably significant parts of the 11-year period being discussed, the Cowboys felt little need to draft a QB. Their choices at the position were limited to Hogeboom, a 5th round pick in 1980; Reggie Collier, a 6th round choice in 1983; Steve Pelluer, a 5th round pick in 1984; Stan Gelbaugh, a 6th round choice in 1986; Kevin Sweeney, a 7th round pick in 1987; and Scott Secules, a 6th round pick in 1988. I doubt seriously that Brandt overrode the wishes of Landry and Schramm to choose not to invest better than a 5th round pick in the QB position during a period of 11 years.

    Brandt has claimed that Joe Montana was the top player on the Cowboys' board at one point in the 1979 draft but was passed when available because Staubach appeared destined to play a few more years and White was the QB in waiting. I have no idea whether that is true, but it makes sense. Yes, it can be construed as self-serving of Brandt to point it out, but it would have been an understandable decision by the braintrust to look to another position given the existing depth chart.

    Again, it's fair to criticize Brandt's track record in the 11-year period mentioned, but it's hardly fair to imply that he had lost his ability to identify NFL talent. Luck, good and bad, always plays a role in determining our fate. Yes the Cowboys gambled too often on draft day and began to throw snake eyes rather than 7s and 11s. But there is room for perspective.

    Brandt deserves enough respect to offer it.
  15. Eskimo

    Eskimo Well-Known Member

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    Interesting points you just made about Brandt's later years with the Cowboys.

    About Joe Montana and our 3rd round pick that year, Tex Schramm admitted that Montana was our top ranked player at that point in the draft but they needed a TE more so chose Doug Cosbie instead.

    About Michael Irvin, he was our #1 player on the board that year so I think we still would have chosen him that year even if Sherrard had not been injured.

    You also need to remember that we had also tried to draft Jerry Rice in 1985 only to have the 49ers trade up ahead of us and grab him.

    I think Brandt knows how to spot talent and he is truly a legend in the scouting world.
  16. a_minimalist

    a_minimalist Well-Known Member

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    I just wanted to say that this has been, by far, the coolest and best thread I've read while being a member to this forum so far. It's only been a month and I'm only 27 but just reading what all of you have written has been beyond educational, so thank you.

    The only thing I can really say from gathering what's been discussed in this thread is that in any job people tend to remember what somebody did last rather than take a step back and examine their body of work. IMO everyone should be judged on their body of work, not how they started and not how they finished.

    Now I'm going to have to do some resJearch on Gil Brandt.
  17. xwalker

    xwalker Well-Known Member

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    The decline of the Cowboys in the late 80s was primarily due to the following:

    In 1984, H.R. "Bum" Bright purchased the Dallas Cowboys from Clint Murchison, Jr.


    Bright had financial problems that affected the team, including the scouting department.
  18. EGG

    EGG Well-Known Member

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    That's okay, he gets plenty of respect from peers and people who know better,,,
  19. BAT

    BAT Mr. Fixit

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    Amen. Plus Landry and Schramm did not always agree with Brandt's scouting team.

    And teams finally learned how to neutralize Landry's Flex Defense. His players knew it, Schramm knew it, but Landry would not admit to it. Unlike Buddy Ryan's 46, the Flex was effective for almost 20 years.
  20. mortboy

    mortboy Active Member

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    I am blown away when I listen to Brandt on Sirius. He has to be somewhere in his 80's and has a remarkable memory. Not just with today's player, but 30 years ago he can remember a 10th round pick's mom and dad's names as well as the high school that kid went to. The memory he has is insane for a guy his age.

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