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Gun Control (NIU)

Discussion in 'Political Zone' started by AbeBeta, Feb 17, 2008.

  1. burmafrd

    burmafrd Well-Known Member

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    A flint lock musket was the standard military weapon of that time. An assault weapon is the standard military weapon of this time. So what is the problem?
  2. sacase

    sacase Well-Known Member

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    Do you people even know what an assult rifle is? Yes, they can fire 200 RPM however, how accurate is that? Why do you think the M16A2 doesn't have automatic fire? Because it is extreamly inacurate, this isn't the movies. HAve you ever fired a M16A2 on Burst? Again, its not that accurate. All a Semi-Automatic Rifle is, is a Rifle that can fire ONE round with each pull of the trigger without reloading.

    Do you know that this congresswoman from New York is attempting to ban all weapons that LOOK like military weapons, all weapons whose design was insipred buy military weapons and all weapons that have a barrel shroud. When asked what a barrel shroud was, she didn't have any clue. When told that a barrel shroud went around the entire barrel of the rifle she said that it should be banned because it looks like a military rifle. They want to ban stuff because of how it looks not because of what it can do. The New Jersey State police chief said that he has had more officers attacked by tigers than with assult weapons. Why are Tigers not bad. Gun control is dumb and doesn't work. I have no problems with a 7 day waiting period for anyone, that gives people time to cool off. I have no problem for people with mental issues being banned from owning weapons. But I have a serious problem with banning weapons of any sort other than explosives.
  3. BrAinPaiNt

    BrAinPaiNt Brotherhood of the Beard Staff Member

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    This is why a made a post earlier that most of these rifles do not make good hunting rifles. If you don't need a 3 round burst or full on rapid fire automatic for hunting then why would someone want to use a weapon like that on single shot selection for hunting when there are already a ton of good rifles out there for single shot fire.

    Full bore auto and 3 round burst firing is not accurate like you mentioned. And definitely not a good idea if you are hunting most game. Deer meat is not going to be that great if you spray a deer with a weapon like that only to find out you punctured the intestines and ruined the meat.

    So if you are going to go out and hunt game, which I have not in years because I don't have the patience to sit still and be quiet that long:D , there are plenty of other rifles that are better suited for it and you don't want to be using anything other than a single shot option.
  4. SultanOfSix

    SultanOfSix Star Power

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    The founding fathers instituted the "right to bear arms" in the constitution for the sole reason to suppress tyranny of governmental authority in case it decided to impose its will on the people instead of carrying out the will of the poeple. This reason was the same basis for their implementation of "checks and balances" in the government by breaking it up into three different branches: the executive, judicial, and legislative.

    Even if they couldn't fathom modern warfare with its ability to kill instantly while shredding a human body into a millions of pieces, I'm sure they witnessed the savagery of war where people had their skulls bashed in, heads scalped, and limbs cut off, which doesn't make it any less disgusting. Human history being what it is throughout the ages, they recognized that every individual has a set of freedoms that are inalienable rights, and one of those is the right to defend themselves, and to do it with arms if necessary.
  5. Hostile

    Hostile Peace Zone Supporter

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    I believe most hunters would agree with you and choose a more suitable rifle. However, if a hunter chooses to use a rifle with a 3 round burst for some reason I have no issue with it. I think it is safe to say that 95% or higher of all rifles with that capability are owned by people who simply like to go shoot them for the adrenaline rush.
  6. BrAinPaiNt

    BrAinPaiNt Brotherhood of the Beard Staff Member

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    Yeah I don't have a problem with that. Like I said I would love to have an M-203 just to blow crap up and have fun.

    However a doubt too many serious hunters will be out using 3 round bursts to take a deer out. I guess one could make the argument for duck hunters if they are a terrible shot and need to have the advantage of hoping more rounds equal more hits.

    http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/M203-1.jpg

    They are a blast...pooop noise and then BOOM.
  7. Hostile

    Hostile Peace Zone Supporter

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    That's what I was agreeing with. If some do, that's their business. Ducks would be shotguns.
  8. sacase

    sacase Well-Known Member

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    I have shot them before, they are ok, the MK 19 is much better :)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mk_19_grenade_launcher

    I don't have a problem with people wanting assult rifles. I want one and I know I will only use it on occasion. Mainly because I hate clearning them, the carbon gets EVERYWHERE. I can understand not allowing heavy machine guns, but I see no point about assult rifles.
  9. BrAinPaiNt

    BrAinPaiNt Brotherhood of the Beard Staff Member

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    Yes cleaning was a pain.

    I remember some of my buddies loving to use the left over ammo at the range and just tearing up stuff...only to be complaining later when it took them forever to clean their weapons for inspections.:laugh2:

    If I ever used the extra ammo it was when I would use one of my LT's 45s at the range...knowing he would be the one cleaning it later.:laugh2:
  10. sacase

    sacase Well-Known Member

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    Your telling your age! I don't think 45s are even in the inventroy anymore.

    I remember when I wasin PLDC I volunteered to take the SAW out since I knew the whole squad had to clean it. My weapon stayed nice and clean. LOL

    As the unit armorer I never wanted to fire more than I had to cause I knew how much of an *** I was about people turning in dirty weapons. I lived at the commanders and 1SG office after the ranges telling on the senior NCO's and officers who did crappy jobs of cleaning their personal weapons and gave me some weak excuse why they couldn't do more.
  11. burmafrd

    burmafrd Well-Known Member

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    a LITTLE LESSON for the firearm ignorant:

    An assault weapon is - as usually defined- is a SKS type weapon.
    Shorter and lighter then a hunting rifle but with a detachable magazine. The magazine that comes with the weapon only carrys 5-10 rds (depending on the state) but it can take up to a 50 rd magazine or a 85 rd drum magazine.
    It can only fire semi-automatic= NOT FULL AUTOMATIC, NOT 3 RD BURSTS EITHER. That means it fires one shot each time you pull the trigger.
    It is less powerfull from a rate of fire point to the M 16.
  12. BrAinPaiNt

    BrAinPaiNt Brotherhood of the Beard Staff Member

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    Yes it was in the late 80's early 90's...I'm getting to be an old fart.

    Heck while in basic we still had vietnam era AR-15s with the triangular stocks. Those things were ALWAYS jamming at the range.
  13. burmafrd

    burmafrd Well-Known Member

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    the M16 was always a piece of crap. The M16A2 is just an improved piece of crap.
  14. sacase

    sacase Well-Known Member

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    Yeah when I got out in 04 they were changing over from the M16A2 to the M4. Strangly enough the M4 is very much like the CAR-15 which was a vietnam era weapon. I enjoyed the M4 since it was shorter and lighter. The infantry guys had all the cool gadgets on theirs. Pistols are now the Browing 9mm. I would prefer they go back to the 45s but to many females had problems qualifying with them.
  15. iceberg

    iceberg detoxed Zone Supporter

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    it would seem to make duck hunting easier...
  16. burmafrd

    burmafrd Well-Known Member

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    That piece of Crap Berretta was a huge rip off. I think Byrd was tied into that deal.
  17. sacase

    sacase Well-Known Member

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    Get a combat shotgun :) Oh they want to ban those as well...
  18. AbeBeta

    AbeBeta Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps I gave you a bit too much credit here for compiling your own analyses -- you call that "laughable" but given that you weren't really forthcoming initially with your sources and at first provided simply source material (xls files), I assumed that you'd done this work yourself.

    Again, as I've noted you can't simply take averages comparing RTC vs. Not RTC and say "whammo looks at that difference" -- that's simply not a reasonable statistical analysis because it fails to control for the slew of alternative explanations for the differences. What is particularly troubling about this analysis -- and what I was getting at in my question -- is that there is no information about how many cities are included in each of the groupings. Nor is there information about how cities are weighted in the analysis.

    Another serious problem here is the comparison of MSA's vs. non-MSA's -- 50,000 is an awfully small area to define as a urban when you consider that the 200 largest U.S. cities all are double that size at least. A finer grained analysis will likely find higher crime rates in the largest cities such as (NY, LA, Chicago) - notice of course that the three largest cities all reside in states that do not have RTC whereas the 50k definition allows very small cities to be included in this group from the more rural non-rtc states.

    You get awfully puffed up here about "reading the material" but what you provided at first were excel spreadsheets that did not make the comparisons (and still don't) between states with RTC and those without -- those came from the "research" you presented later. You need to cite all the sources you refer to if you want to make a point.

    The point remains - this "article" presents some analyses that real statisticians or anyone who has a scientific background find laughable because of a) the complete lack of methodological detail -- e.g., no information about which states are classified as RTC, no information about how and if weights were used, b) the lack of any formal statistical procedure for making comparisons aside from raw %s, and c) the lack of statistical controls or consideration of alternative explanations like % of people living in urban areas.

    The articles I presented early provide actual statistical models that address a slew of potential confounds not included in the analyses you've presented and finer grained analyses that focus on county-level data (since many counties do have local RTC laws within non-RTC states). And not surprisingly, even the one written by a gun nut, find far less compelling results. Why? Because they used real statistical methodology.

    Additionally, you keep saying this is the FBI's data -- that is correct but what you miss is that this is not the FBI's analysis. The FBI provides the raw data through their UCR program - the ANALYSIS has nothing to do with the FBI. So don't attribute their prestige to the analysis as they did not conduct the RTC analyses.
  19. Hostile

    Hostile Peace Zone Supporter

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    I've shot an M16 and an AK47 and the AK is a much better gun. The M16 climbs as you shoot it. Point it at the feet and it will climb right through a terrorist.
  20. sacase

    sacase Well-Known Member

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    I couldn't stand the beretta, it was about worthless. They need the 45 back. But then again the SOCOM mk23 Mod 0, is beautiful.

    The A2 is nice rifle, just doesn't have stopping power, it will go right through you. The 47 has a 7.62mm round that has much more stopping power. But again you are looking at a 5.56mm round vs a 7.62mm round.

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