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Hall of Fame Announcement Thread***Allen IN-2013 class Post #9***

Discussion in 'Fan Zone' started by WoodysGirl, Feb 2, 2013.

  1. DFWJC

    DFWJC Well-Known Member Zone Supporter

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    There is a strong chance that Larry Allen is the best player at his position to ever wear the star.

    It was pretty telling that some of his highlights show him totally devouring fellow HOFer Warren Sapp.

    I've never heard anyone say he was not the best and most dominant.
    11 Pro Bowls and regualar accounts of players getting the Larry Allen flu or having a muscle cramp the day they have to play against him. He just scared people he was so dominant.

    Few or none of our other HOFers are ever considered the VERY best at their position in NFL history--especially outside of our own fanbase.
  2. perrykemp

    perrykemp Well-Known Member

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    Emmitt Smith is the only other one that comes to mind... he clearly was the most productive over a career, although it's probably the norm to see Jim Brown and Walter Payton ranked higher than him in terms of all time RBs.
  3. Diogenes

    Diogenes Active Member

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    Bob Lilly is at least in the discussion of best defensive tackle of all time with the likes of Alan Page, Joe Greene and Merlin Olsen.
  4. DFWJC

    DFWJC Well-Known Member Zone Supporter

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    I agree that both Smith and especially Lilly would get a lot of mention.

    I clarified outside of out fanbase specifically for Emmitt. He barely makes the top 10 in some lists, and not the top 5 in most.
    But if someone wanted to argue "production" vs "best" then that story would change.

    My guess is that Deion gets mentioned by some as the best at his position more often than Emmitt does.

    Lilly was awesome.
  5. KJJ

    KJJ You Have an Axe to Grind

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    Winning a SB MVP award is diminished if it's in a losing effort even Howley admitted that but it certainly isn't the reason he hasn't been voted into the HOF. lol I know from having discussions with you in the past you'll put your own spin on anything just to create an argument. Don't waste your time comparing Howley with those other LB's I've listed you're a biased FAN who thinks he's not in the HOF because there's a biased against the Cowboys amongst HOF voters your sig says it all. I gave all the reasons why he's not in the HOF but you decided to put your own spin on one comment I made because you're looking for an argument.
  6. mldardy

    mldardy Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure what lists you are looking at but Emmitt is always in the top 10 of most lists and top 5 of some lists.
  7. DFWJC

    DFWJC Well-Known Member Zone Supporter

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    That's basically what I said.
    Most of the time he is in the top 10.
    But much less of the time (but still some of the time) he's in the top 5.
    Outside our Cowboy fans though, he's never really at the very top.
  8. percyhoward

    percyhoward Research Tool

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    Calling someone a fan (or anything else, for that matter) doesn't affect the point he's just made. If my argument is flawed, show me where.

    Chuck Howley: 18 All-NFL 1st Teams, (5 A.P.), 6 Pro Bowls
    Robert Brazile: 15 All-NFL 1st Teams (2 A.P.), 7 Pro Bowls
    Dave Robinson: 12 All-NFL 1st Teams (1 A.P.), 3 Pro Bowls
    Randy Gradishar: 11 All-NFL 1st Teams (2 A.P.), 7 Pro Bowls
    Maxie Baughan: 7 All-NFL 1st Teams (2 A.P.), 9 Pro Bowls
    Kevin Greene: 6 All-NFL 1st Teams, (2 A.P.), 5 Pro Bowls
    Andy Russell: 1 All-NFL 1st Team, (0 A.P.), 7 Pro Bowls

    The Associated Press voted Howley the best in the NFL at his position five different times. Robinson is already in. Howley, Brazile, and Gradishar should all be in. After that, you get to some players who were consistently viewed as second- or third-best in the league.

    Even so, the fact that Brazile and Gradishar should be in the HOF doesn't change the fact that Howley should also be in, and probably ahead of them.

    If you have an argument that there really is no bias, it's time for you to present it now.
  9. KJJ

    KJJ You Have an Axe to Grind

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    There is no Cowboy bias that's only in the heads of some Cowboy FANS like yourself. If there was a "Cowboy" bias several Cowboy players including Irvin and Aikman wouldn't have been voted in I've already pointed that out. Troy didn't have HOF numbers there's fans around the league that will tell you he was never that good but he was voted into the HOF on the first ballot because he led the Cowboys to 3 championships in 4 years. Irvin had off the field issues including drugs and infidelity that would have turned voters off if there was a Cowboy bias.

    If you look through history there's many players who had HOF credentials who have yet to be voted in and may never but it has nothing to do with the team they played for. The HOF voters don't have a team bias but some do have a player bias which Al Michaels admitted this is why Charles Haley hasn't been voted in.
  10. percyhoward

    percyhoward Research Tool

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    When I look at all WR with similar careers as Irvin's, (1st team AP All-Pro, SB ring, All-Decade selection) they are all in the HOF. Well, all except Drew Pearson. When I look at the eligible QB with three rings, I see that they, too, are all in the HOF.

    So explain how a QB with three rings and an All-Decade WR being in the HOF proves there is no bias.

    Al Michaels is not on the selection committee.

    Here's what Paul Zimmerman said, just after he resigned from the committee in 2004 in protest of Bob Hayes being denied induction:

    "There's probably some twisted Cowboys bias there. There are more Cowboys who deserve it. Chuck Howley deserves it. Lee Roy Jordan deserves it. But God forbid you propose those guys after what they did to these guys (Hayes, Cliff Harris, and Rayfield Wright)."

    Zimmerman was a long-time writer for Sports Illustrated who was never associated with the Cowboys in any way. He wasn't alone in his opinion.

    "I hope there isn't a bias, but when you look at the results, you have to raise the question." -- Don Pierson, Chicago Tribune

    But forget what some of the selectors themselves have said, you can just look at the numbers and make up your own mind.
  11. KJJ

    KJJ You Have an Axe to Grind

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    Most of the QB's who are in the Hall of Fame especially those voted in on the first ballot were inducted primarily due to their career numbers. There's some in the media as well as fans around the league who think the Cowboys could have won those 3 SB's during the 90's with any good QB. Some FANS on this board have posted that Romo could have won those 3 SB's with those teams. I'm certainly not one of those who thinks any good QB could have led those Cowboy teams to championships but many do because of Aikman's modest career numbers. Obviously Aikman became a first ballot Hall of Famer due to leading a Cowboys team that became the team of the 90's to 3 SB wins in 4 years. If there was a Cowboy bias Aikman's modest career numbers would have been used as a reason for keeping him out at least on the first ballot.

    There may be a bias against a player but not a team and we're seeing a bias against Charles Haley. What proves there's no bias against the Cowboys is the number of players they have in the HOF. The problem with FANS on boards like this is they think every good player the Cowboys have had through the years should be in the HOF. No one is saying Howley isn't worthy but there's a lot of players who played for other teams that are just as worthy who aren't in. Is it because those on the committee don't like the teams those players represented?

    Howley retired in 73 and was eligible for the HOF in 1979 when the Cowboys were at the peak of their popularity. A year earlier the term "America's Team" was coined. I can't see why anyone on the HOF committee would have a bias against an organization as respected as the Cowboys were. Landry was a class act as was the organization. The Cowboys had just entered the league as an expansion team not long after Howley arrived in Dallas and he got stuck on some very bad teams. That coupled with coming up short to the Packers in championships had to of hurt his HOF chances some.

    I can't remember what Steeler player it was from the 70's but they said had it not been for the 4 SB wins he wouldn't have been elected to the HOF. Dave Robinson the LB who just got voted in got the nod because he played on 3 championship teams for Lombardi. Howley may have been a better player than Robinson but his Cowboy teams kept coming up short to Robinson's Packers.


    Didn't say he was but he knows many who are on the committee. He said all it takes is one member not to like a player to keep that player from being voted into the HOF. It came up in a discussion about Charles Haley.


    He was giving his opinion and anyone who shares it is also expressing an opinion. Explain to me why you think there's a bias against the Cowboys? I could understand that Jimmy Johnson may have rubbed some people the wrong way and we all know Jerry has his detractors but Landry, Shramm and the old regime remained intact until 1988 giving Howley plenty of time to be inducted while the Cowboys were at the peak of respectability. I just don't see how a team as popular as the Cowboys have been could have some bias against them amongst HOF voters. What has the team done to deserve it?

    Again it's an opinion show me some facts? The numbers may say HOF but sometimes a teams lack of big game success hurts the player unless it's Dick Butkus. Vinny and Bledsoe's numbers say HOF at least their career yardage does both are ranked in the top 10. Vinny currently ranks 7th in career passing yards and the 6 QB's ahead of him are and will be in the HOF. Brees and Brady who are ranked 8th and 9th will be first ballot Hall of Famers so that will make 8 of the top 10 career passing yards leaders in the HOF except for Vinny and Bledsoe. It's not just the numbers as I've pointed out with Aikman.
  12. KJJ

    KJJ You Have an Axe to Grind

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    Was he a Cowboy fan? Maybe he was a biased FAN. lol It's comes down to a VOTE and not everyone on the committee is going to see a players career the same way unless it's Jerry Rice, Jim Brown, Joe Montana or a Lawrence Taylor. In the LPGA Hall of Fame a player has to have a certain number of wins to gain induction. It's not like a QB, receiver or RB has to reach a certain stat standard to gain induction so it's up to the committee whether a player had a Hall of Fame career.
  13. KJJ

    KJJ You Have an Axe to Grind

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    Hayes should have been inducted long before he was he was a pioneer who's world class speed brought along the zone defense but it wasn't a bias against the Cowboys that was keeping him out it was issues with "him" that kept him out. In one of the most historic games in NFL history The "Ice Bowl" Hayes ran routes with his hands in his pants some had issues with him because of that. There was a report not sure if it was true that he didn't want to come out for the second half of that game because of the cold and practically had to be dragged out of the locker room.

    Many of the Packers players said that Hayes running routes with his hands in his pants tipped them off when the ball wasn't coming to him. Hayes only had 3 catches for 16 yards in that game. How a player performs in an historic game that's been put into a time capsule can have an affect on their career. When you look at Lynn Swann's modest career numbers no way do they say HOF. He's in the HOF because of his postseason play primarily his MVP performance in SB X and being part of 4 SB wins. The main issue that caused Hayes not to get voted into the HOF sooner was his off the field problems with drugs which led to him having another pioneering distinction as being the first world class athlete who was convicted of being a drug dealer.

    You don't think that affected some of the members of the HOF committee when it came time to vote? I'm a believer that you judge a player strictly by what they did on the field but naturally some are going to look past that. Lawrence Taylor had issues with cocaine which led to run-ins with the law and being suspended by the NFL several times for failing drug tests. He was jailed 3 times for drugs and some thought the HOF committee might pass on him on the first ballot because of his drug issues. He got the nod on the first because he's one of the top 5 greatest players in history. Michael Irvin probably would have been a first ballot Hall of Famer had it not been for his drug issues and infidelity.

    Unless there's a stat standard that players have to achieve to qualify for induction into the HOF that eliminates the need for voting there's going to be some controversy. There's players in the HOF that make you scratch your head as how they got voted in. Take for example Floyd Little his career numbers are comparable with Don Perkins. Little only had ONE 1000 yard season and his career rushing average was only 3.9 per carry. How he got voted into the HOF is beyond me but it certainly can't be because the committee is made up of Denver Bronco fans.
  14. KJJ

    KJJ You Have an Axe to Grind

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    One other point I failed to mention about Hayes was he wasn't inducted into the Cowboys ROH until 2001 which was 27 years after he retired from football. Obviously him being a convicted drug dealer had to be the reason he wasn't inducted into the ROH under Landry and Schramm.

    With the clean respectable image the Cowboys had even they snubbed Hayes from being honored in the teams HOF for many years. If you or anyone else thinks there was some bias against the Cowboys that was keeping him out of the Hall of Fame all those years you're just kidding yourself.
  15. percyhoward

    percyhoward Research Tool

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    Opinion has nothing to do with it. That's the point. All I did was count players who had five Pro Bowls (or made a HOF All-Decade Team), who made 1st team AP All-Pro, who had at least one ring, and who aren't in the Hall of Fame.

    There are more Cowboys than any other team. A lot more. The Cowboys have 13 players, and the Dolphins are next with 5. The Cowboys have more of these players than the 49ers, Raiders, Packers, and Steelers combined. Even if you leave out that last step, and include players without rings, there are more Cowboys than any other team.

    I don't know where you think opinion enters into this, unless you're trying to say that the parameters I set don't reflect HOF-worthy criteria. To that, I would have to point to all the players in the Hall who do not meet or who meet but do not exceed these criteria -- 43 (out of 173 players in the Hall of Fame from the Pro Bowl era) have 5 Pro Bowls or fewer or made one AP All-Pro 1st team or none. About 25% of all Pro Bowl-era HOF players, in other words.

    And every year, on average, two more of them get in.

    Look at the numbers.


    Let's focus on just the Super Bowl era of HOF eligibility, 1966-1997. I use 1997 as the cutoff point because those players are just about all eligible now. These were the most successful teams of that era:
    49ers
    Cowboys
    Packers
    Redskins
    Raiders
    Steelers

    Now, compare how many of those teams' players are in the Hall of Fame vs. how many have the credentials I mentioned above, but are on the outside looking in:
    49ers 6 in, 3 out (Haley, Craig, B. Young)
    Packers 11 in, 4 out (Kramer, Gillingham, Jackson, Butler)
    Redskins 4 in, 2 out (Butz, Jacoby)
    Raiders 11 in, 3 out (Stabler, Hayes, Christensen)
    Steelers 9 in, 2 out (Greenwood, Shell)
    Cowboys 12 in, 13 out (Andrie, Green, Haley, Harris, Howley, Jordan, Martin, Neely, Newton, Niland, Novacek, Pearson, Woodson)

    You don't see anything unusual there?
  16. burmafrd

    burmafrd Well-Known Member

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    you are wasting your time. Closed minds like his never open
  17. KJJ

    KJJ You Have an Axe to Grind

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    It's all based on opinion amongst a committee because there's no set criteria to gain induction. There's no set number of pro bowls, all pro teams, TD's, passing/rushing yards, ints, tackles or return yards that's required on a players resume depending on their position to be considered HOF worthy. When there's not a set standard a player has to reach then it comes down to opinions and a vote.

    All you're doing is continuing this theme there's a bias against the Cowboys amongst the HOF committee which has never been proven. No one digs through more stats trying to prove there's a bias more than you. If there were FACTS that conclusively proved certain members of the committee had a bias against a particular team keeping their players out then something would be done about it.

    You mentioned Paul Zimmerman who claimed he resigned from the committee in 2004 in protest of Bob Hayes being denied induction when the fact is Hayes was denied induction into his own teams HOF for 27 years. If a players own team who obviously has a bias in favor of them had issues inducting them for almost 3 decades into their own HOF good luck having a committee who has no affiliation with the Cowboys inducting them into the Pro Football Hall of Fame. One of the reasons Jerry put Hayes in the ROH was to help get him voted into the HOF.


    Some FANS read something unusual or fishy into everything when it involves the Cowboys. If calls go against the team the refs are accused of being biased. If the Cowboys get a tough schedule it's because there's a bias. If the Cowboys have to go play in a certain city outside the division twice in a 2-3 year period or one of their games gets flexed to Sunday Night where they lose most of the time it's all because we're hated. :laugh2: You won't find more conspiracy theories on the Kennedy assignation than you'll find on why some FANS think the Cowboys are always getting the shaft from someone.

    No offense Percy you're a good FAN and a diehard like a lot of us who frequently post but you go a little overboard with some of the stats like Adam does. You need to look beyond the numbers because there's not a Cowboy player you've listed that isn't in the HOF that I can't give you several plausible reasons why they probably aren't and they won't have anything to do with some twisted bias against the Cowboys.
  18. percyhoward

    percyhoward Research Tool

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    What you can't do is give one reason why there would be so many.
  19. KJJ

    KJJ You Have an Axe to Grind

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    I can give you a reason it's because the Cowboys had so many outstanding players through the years. You don't appear in 8 SB's (a record) winning 5 of them and have 20 consecutive winning seasons without having a lot of terrific players. The Cowboys cream of the crop are all in the Hall of Fame including Landry and Tex Schramm. It can be argued that Chuck Howley, Lee Roy Jordan and especially Drew Pearson should be in the HOF but I'm not going to try and spin there's a bias against the team because they're not.

    The Hall of Fame is a very select group and there's a number of omissions from other teams. A lot of teams and fans feel their players are getting a raw deal when it comes to the HOF. The Cowboys already have 3 members from their great 90's teams in the Hall of Fame not including Deon and a 4th member Larry Allen was just voted in. Of the 4 members 3 of them were first ballot. Like i keep repeating unless there's a set criteria in place that automatically qualifies a player for induction it's going to come down to an opinion amongst a committee and a vote.

    Losing a number of championship games hurt some of the players under Landry. The team was winning consistently but coming up short in title games. In 29 years the Cowboys only won 2 world championships under Landry when they should have won more with the caliber of teams they had. The blown opportunities hurt players like Howley, Harris and several others.
  20. percyhoward

    percyhoward Research Tool

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    Of course.

    Many more such eligible players than any other team in the Super Bowl era, when you look closely. And this is a fact which most of the committee members do not wish to acknowledge, prompting one of them to resign in protest of that fact. It's keeping deserving players from getting in.

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