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Hall of Fame Announcement Thread***Allen IN-2013 class Post #9***

Discussion in 'Fan Zone' started by WoodysGirl, Feb 2, 2013.

  1. KJJ

    KJJ You Have an Axe to Grind

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    As I mentioned the Cowboys have had a lot of real good players through the years and not all of them are going to get voted into the Hall of Fame. Some of these players were great for the Cowboys but historically were just considered good players. Some of the players that are being mentioned on this board for the Hall of Famer aren't even in the Cowboys ROH like Harvey Martin. if it was up to a lot of Cowboy FANS the team would have at least 30 players in the HOF. Just look at some of the names that are being brought up for the HOF. I was on a board a few years ago where this topic came up and Larry Browns name was mentioned for crying out loud. :facepalm: The NFL has been around for almost 93 years and every year several players/coaches usually 4 to 7 get voted into the Hall of Fame. The Hall of Fame is a very elite group and some very good players end up not receiving enough votes. The selection committee is made up of 46 people. The link below lists the selection committee and explains the selection process.


    http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/selectionprocess.aspx

    As for the one who resigned in protest Paul Zimmermen he resigned due to Bob Hayes not being voted in. I mentioned it took 27 years after Hayes retired for the Cowboys to honor him in the teams Hall of Fame. Some members of the HOF committee obviously had issues with Hayes' conviction for dealing drugs as did Landry and Shramm who had 15 years to put Hayes in the Cowboys ROH and didn't. Hayes being denied for years into the HOF certainly had nothing to do with any bias against the Cowboys.

    Alex Karras was never voted into the HOF and some feel it was due to his off the field issues that included gambling which cost him a season. Like I keep driving home it's not a bias against a team that keeps a player out it's an issue with the player. If you're on a committee and have a problem with a player you're not going to cast a vote for them. There's always going to be some bias when you have 46 individuals voting on a HOF induction.

    Some players are borderline Hall of Famers and there's going to be some disagreement whether these players are worthy and some on the committee are going to look past their playing ability and examine their character. Had OJ Simpson stood trial for the double murder he was accused of and most feel he committed prior to his HOF induction he would have never been inducted. It's not the team it's the player that's being scrutinized.

    Everything we're discussing is based on opinion and don't say it's not. No one knows what's going on in the minds of 46 members on a committee. Unless there's a criteria a player has to meet that automatically earns them induction into the HOF it's going to come down to a vote where 80% of the committee is going to have to agree for a player to get inducted into the HOF.
  2. percyhoward

    percyhoward Research Tool

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    49ers 6 in, 3 out (Haley, Craig, B. Young)
    Packers 11 in, 4 out (Kramer, Gillingham, Jackson, Butler)
    Redskins 4 in, 2 out (Butz, Jacoby)
    Raiders 11 in, 3 out (Stabler, Hayes, Christensen)
    Steelers 9 in, 2 out (Greenwood, Shell)
    Cowboys 12 in, 13 out (Andrie, Green, Haley, Harris, Howley, Jordan, Martin, Neely, Newton, Niland, Novacek, Pearson, Woodson)

    Where does anybody's opinion enter into this except that of the selection committee, and how could the selection committee, or you, or anybody else possibly justify this disparity?
  3. KJJ

    KJJ You Have an Axe to Grind

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    You're giving your opinion of the 13 Cowboy players that are out of the HOF and 8 of them aren't even in the Cowboys ROH. :cool: How could those 8 players be HOF worthy if they weren't even worthy enough for their own team to honor them in their ROH?
  4. KJJ

    KJJ You Have an Axe to Grind

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    Look, I love the Cowboys as much as any FAN on this or any other Cowboys board and would love to see a lot more Cowboys in the Hall of Fame but 8 of the players you think are HOF worthy aren't even in the Cowboys ROH. Explain how 8 players who aren't in the Cowboys ROH should be in the HOF? I'm not saying they weren't all real good players because they were but obviously they weren't special enough for their own team to honor them with a ROH induction at least not yet.

    Of the players you listed Howley, Jordan and especially Drew Pearson were Hall of Fame players in my opinion. I've seen many programs with experts discussing who they think should be in the Hall of Fame and their opinions all vary. It's all based on opinion. Most Raider FANS as well as some who cover the Raiders think Jim Plunkett should be in the HOF because of his 2 SB wins. It's an opinion and some opinions are biased.
  5. percyhoward

    percyhoward Research Tool

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    Whoa, stop right there. That is not an opinion. Read this next sentence.

    That's a list of *all* the HOF-eligible players from 1966-1997 for the teams with the most Super Bowl wins of that era who have 5 Pro Bowls (or an All-Decade Team selection), were A.P. 1st Team All-Pro, have a Super Bowl ring, and are not in the Hall of Fame.
  6. KJJ

    KJJ You Have an Axe to Grind

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    They're eligible but are you going to tell me they all should be in the HOF? Like I said 8 of those players aren't even in the Cowboys ROH.
  7. percyhoward

    percyhoward Research Tool

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    The other five most successful teams of that era, combined, have a total of 14 such players. The Cowboys alone have 13.

    49ers 6 in, 3 out (Haley, Craig, B. Young)
    Packers 11 in, 4 out (Kramer, Gillingham, Jackson, Butler)
    Redskins 4 in, 2 out (Butz, Jacoby)
    Raiders 11 in, 3 out (Stabler, Hayes, Christensen)
    Steelers 9 in, 2 out (Greenwood, Shell)
    Cowboys 12 in, 13 out (Andrie, Green, Haley, Harris, Howley, Jordan, Martin, Neely, Newton, Niland, Novacek, Pearson, Woodson)

    Do you see a disparity?
  8. KJJ

    KJJ You Have an Axe to Grind

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    There's a disparity because the Cowboys have had a lot of very good players through the years which is why the organization has been to a record 8 SB's. You didn't answer the question do you think all 13 players who are eligible should be in the Hall of Fame?
  9. Chocolate Lab

    Chocolate Lab Run-loving Dino

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    Can KJJ's trainer throw in the towel for him?
  10. KJJ

    KJJ You Have an Axe to Grind

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    Care to add something to the topic or did you come here just to take a slap at me? Let's hear your side of the argument if you even have one.
  11. percyhoward

    percyhoward Research Tool

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    The point is that the Hall of Fame should reflect this. After all, the standards for induction are supposed to be the same for all players. To hold a player to a higher standard because he was a Cowboy is the very definition of bias.

    Now, separate from the question of bias, you're just asking me my opinion of the 13 players. Fine. I'll even add two more and rank them. :D
    1. Howley
    2. Harris
    3. Martin
    4. Pearson
    5. Woodson
    6. Haley
    7. Everson Walls
    8. Jordan
    9. Green
    10. Don Perkins
    11. Niland
    12. Neely
    13. Novacek
    14. Andrie
    15. Newton

    I'd put 1-7 in.

    And even then, I'd be leaving off...

    * a finalist for the HOF at #8
    * a 5-time Pro Bowler (at both CB and S) and 2-time 1st team AP All-Pro at #9
    * a 6-time Pro Bowler and 1-time 1st team AP All-Pro at #10
    *a 6-time Pro Bowler and 2-time 1st team AP All-Pro at #11.
  12. KJJ

    KJJ You Have an Axe to Grind

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    The point I keep trying to drive home is there is no set standard for induction it's something you've created from being so obsessed with stats and comparisons. There isn't a certain number of pro bowls/all pro teams or any other achievement that a player must reach to be voted into the HOF. Part of the achievements you have to look at when judging a player is the number of championships they were apart of. There's players in the Hall of Fame that wouldn't be there if it wasn't for being part of championships like Troy Aikman.

    Joe Namath wouldn't be in the HOF if it wasn't for his guarantee of winning one of the most important games in NFL history. You don't think the Cowboys coming up short to the Packers in the 60's and the Steelers in the 70's had anything to do with those teams having more players in the HOF than the Cowboys? You don't think the committee takes into account the number of championships a player was apart of? How do you think Lynn Swann and several other Steelers got voted in?


    Only one of the 15 players you listed had a slam dunk Hall of Fame career and that's Charles Haley. The only reason he's being denied induction is because he created some enemies within the committee. His HOF omission has absolutely nothing to do with him playing for the Cowboys it has to do with him as a person. If it had something to do with him being a Cowboy then Larry Allen wouldn't have just been voted in on the first ballot. Charles Haley contributed greatly to 2 teams winning 5 championships. He impacted the 90's Cowboys more than Larry Allen because he was part of all 3 of their SB wins while Allen was only part of one championship.

    I'll keep repeating it it's not a bias against a team that keeps a deserving player out of the HOF it's a bias against a player that keeps them out. Of the 7 players you would put in the Hall of Fame 3 aren't even in the Cowboys ROH. If you feel Martin, Woodson and Walls are deserving of Hall of Fame inductions then why haven't the Cowboys honored them with ROH inductions? Other than Charles Haley Pearson, Howley and possibly Jordan are the only players in my opinion that had careers worthy of HOF consideration.
  13. burmafrd

    burmafrd Well-Known Member

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    OK why not Harvey Martin?
  14. percyhoward

    percyhoward Research Tool

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    Right, that's why there are players on the outside with better credentials than some of those on the inside.

    It doesn't explain why so many of them come from the same team, however.

    You're forgetting that all 13 of these Cowboys have rings, and five have multiple rings.

    We're not talking about the 70s Vikings or the 90s Bills here.
  15. percyhoward

    percyhoward Research Tool

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    I wasn't consulted. Were you?
  16. percyhoward

    percyhoward Research Tool

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    Martin, like Howley, seems to have been completely forgotten.

    He once had 23 sacks in a 14-game season. A fact which the selection committee doesn't have to consider, because the league didn't think to make sacks an official stat until five years after that.

    Martin averaged more sacks per game over his career than Bruce Smith or Lawrence Taylor.

    Throw in that he was a 1st team AP All-Pro, Defensive Player of the Year, Super Bowl MVP, and a member of the All-Decade Team (selected by, yes, the Hall of Fame selection committee in 1980).

    Martin's never been a semi-finalist, btw. He hasn't made it past the preliminary list.
  17. KJJ

    KJJ You Have an Axe to Grind

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    He's not in the Cowboys ROH so if he was HOF worthy wouldn't the Cowboys have honored him in the teams HOF? He was credited with 114 sacks and a 23 sack season in 1977 and was named Defensive player of the year but unfortunately the NFL didn't start recognizing sack totals until 1982. When the committee looks at his career they see a player who had one great season and several very good seasons.

    He was an excellent player for the Cowboys and was named Co MVP along with Randy White in SB XII. The 2 SB losses to the Steelers didn't help his HOF chances. The Steelers dominated the 70's and it resulted in many of their players being voted into the HOF.
  18. KJJ

    KJJ You Have an Axe to Grind

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    Why should we be consulted they didn't play for us. All 3 of them were very good players but obviously weren't considered special or they would be in the the Cowboys ROH. However I do think Woody has a good shot to be the next Cowboy player put in the ROH.
  19. KJJ

    KJJ You Have an Axe to Grind

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    Again you're just focusing on the numbers like you always do and are not taking championships into consideration. Some on the inside were part of teams that out played the Cowboys in championship games. There's an explanation and I've given them but you continue this theme there's a bias against the Cowboys even though you have 3 players who you would put in the HOF who aren't even in the Cowboys ROH. Are the Cowboys slighting these players or does your vantage point from your recliner make you a better judge of who should be in their ROH? :cool:

    You're forgetting that some of the players who have been inducted ahead of those 13 have more rings due to beating the Cowboys. Do you agree Haley is being denied induction due to the committees issues with him or do you want to continue this nonsense that it's because of a bias against the Cowboys?

    We're talking about a team that lost 2 championships to the Packers in the 60's, 3 SB's during the 70's and a number of conference title games including 3 straight defeats in 80, 81 and 82. Some of the most memorable games in NFL history the Cowboys lost. They lost the Ice Bowl to Green Bay. They lost 2 memorable SB's to Pittsburgh and the 81 title game known for "The Catch." Instead of dancing around my questions provide an honest answer you don't think those championship losses helped contribute to several of the Cowboys being denied HOF inductions?
  20. percyhoward

    percyhoward Research Tool

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    That's not really how it has worked. The Ring of Honor reacts to what the Hall of Fame does, maybe more so than the other way around.

    By your logic, Jordan, Harris, Wright, and Haley were not HOF worthy when they were first finalists for the HOF, since none of them were in the ROH at the time. They were only inducted into the ROH as a reaction to the fact that they had become HOF finalists.

    What did Rayfield Wright do between 2004 and 2006 to become "Hall of Fame worthy?" The team realized they had erred by not having him in the ROH, and so he was quickly installed. Same with Harris. Same with Haley, and it took two times for him to be a finalist before the team reacted.

    If you're under the impression that this team has an appreciation for its own history, just remember that there wasn't even a 50th Anniversary Team announced. Just a logo and all the merchandize that carried it.

    Slow down. Do you know who votes for the All-Decade Teams? The HOF selection committee.

    When the HOF selection committee looked at Martin in 1980 they voted him to the All-Decade Team of the 70s. If, as you say, the committee has deemed Martin as not having "enough good seasons," then it's a later incarnation of the committee -- one much farther removed from his playing days -- that has decided this in retrospect, and against the earlier group's judgment.

    Just like it's only in retrospect that Harris and Pearson (who also made that team in 1980) have been judged unworthy by later versions of the committee. Do you think that group of voters in 1980 was unaware that the Steelers had just won their 4th Super Bowl?

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