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I Can't Help But Wonder

Discussion in 'Political Zone' started by Hostile, Mar 21, 2008.

  1. Hostile

    Hostile Tacos are a good investment Zone Supporter

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    If Senator Obama's entire life goal hasn't been completely derailed by Reverend Wright. It is certainly possible that it has. When I see his numbers slipping and Hillary's climbing when I felt he had a stranglehold on the nomination, I can't help but wonder.

    If he is derailed now, I don't think you can attribute it to any other factor. He literally was stomping a mudhole in her and walking it dry, all while looking to be untouchable. My how quickly things change. How ironic that the perception of him is not for something he said, nor possibly for his own beliefs, but because a friend of his whom he will not "disown" is an idiot.

    I wonder how Reverend Wright will feel if this happens? Is he honest enough to point the finger of blame where it belongs? At himself. Will his hate sermons still be something to defend? I don't see how when they are the cause of exactly what he was railing against. He may try to blame the rich, White proletariat, but can he really do that? The support that Obama is losing is from the Independents and Moderates. The very group who were most turned on by the ideals of Obama's unifying message.

    I have openly discussed how much I like Mr. Obama a couple of times. I really do. I've said to family and friends that if he were to beat out McCain for the Presidency I could support him. I'm an Independent, and am also honest enough to admit McCain already has my vote and it is a regional thing. If McCain had not won the GOP nomination I very well might have been behind Obama. Until I saw that footage. I'll be honest, if I had intended to vote for him the chances are about 90% to 10% that he would have lost my vote.

    I say that and I was impressed by his speech. Very impressed in fact. I find the whole fiasco about him using a teleprompter to be hollow. I care about what he said and that he wrote the words himself. Okay, so it wasn't as stirring as Kennedy's "we choose to go to the moon" or Martin Luther King's "I have a dream." I still enjoyed his words very much. I want to believe in unity even if I doubt either side will ever be mature enough to accept the other as different.

    Maybe I'd feel differently if he had "disowned" Wright. I don't know honestly. I'm troubled by the 20 years thing. I'm troubled by the hate in the messages. I'm wondering if his friend, who probably views him as the answer to all his prayers and hopes, can reconcile himself to the fact that he is probably the reason why those dreams may not happen? Talk about a burden squarely on your shoulders and a bullseye right on your chest.

    Was the hate worth it?

    From where I sit, it never is. The last question is, how can we all learn from this? It is quite possibly the living embodiment of an American tragedy.
  2. Heisenberg

    Heisenberg Pow! Pow!

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    I hope he can still somehow manage to come out of this, but if he doesn't, this will be the reason right here. It's unfortunate.

    All you have to do is read his two books and you would never question how much he loves this country, but because a few soundbytes from someone that isn't even him, he's taking hit after hit. It's extremely disappointing and will most likely be the reason I go back to being apathetic about it all after this election is over.
  3. Bizwah

    Bizwah Well-Known Member

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    You may be right.

    I don't think this would be that big of a deal (and it's really not for me) if Obama hadn't had questions about his Patriotism already.

    *You had the picture circulating on the internet when he didn't have his hand on his heart during the national anthem (Hillary and Edwards did)

    *His wife mentioned how this was the "first time" she had been proud of America

    *Now, his pastor makes racially charged and America-hating sermons.

    I do feel for the man. And I don't think he needs to denounce his pastor...I don't think all that goes on in that church is a reflection of Obama as a man. I know in our church, there are many things our pastor says that I don't necessarily agree with.

    I know many will ask why Obama doesn't leave the church if he disagrees with the pastor?

    Well....the church isn't the pastor....the church is made up of the people. You stay in a church because of the love you have for the other members. It's like a family. You stay for them many times.....
  4. Sasquatch

    Sasquatch Lost in the Woods

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    I think it's obvious that Obama values his personal integrity above being president otherwise he would have done the politically safe thing and completely severed his association with Wright.

    He didn't and that impressed me more than anything. He has his warts like the rest of us and didn't make a phony attempt to portray himself as anything but a human being with a complex personal history. How mature and politically brave to suggest that there is more to Wright than the controversial remarks that have been replayed ad nauseum, especially in a society that prefers to see things through a simplified lens of black and white. Obama appreciates nuance and complexity. That's something that I feel is desperately needed in our leadership.

    You mentioned MLK. There was an interesting op-ed piece in the Washington Post today about the Wright controversy. The author quoted an MLK sermon at at his own Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta on Feb. 4, 1968:

    "God didn't call America to engage in a senseless, unjust war. . . . And we are criminals in that war. We've committed more war crimes almost than any nation in the world, and I'm going to continue to say it. And we won't stop it because of our pride and our arrogance as a nation. But God has a way of even putting nations in their place." King then predicted this response from the Almighty: "And if you don't stop your reckless course, I'll rise up and break the backbone of your power."
    LINK

    Does this exonerate Wright's remarks? I don't think so but it does suggest that the black experience in this county is extremely complex and that there is a tradition of angry political rhetoric in the black church that many Americans do not understand.

    Can you imagine the reception that Frederick Douglas's "The Fourth of July for Negro" would receive in this YouTube age? And he's widely celebrated as a great American.
  5. SultanOfSix

    SultanOfSix Star Power

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    Excellent post. It's such complexities that must be delved into in depth rather the superficial media portrayal that is replayed image after image only used to infuse a subtle and subconscious doubt in people's minds for no other reason than guilt by association.
  6. Danny White

    Danny White Winter is Coming

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    Obama is still pretty much a mortal lock for the Dem nomination.

    Where this really hurts him is among moderates and independents in the general election.

    This won't keep him from being the Dem nominee, but it may keep him out of the White House... but that's a good thing.
  7. BrAinPaiNt

    BrAinPaiNt Bad Santa Staff Member

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    I know I have probably said it many times but it still holds true in my mind.

    He had the perfect strategy going. Let the family that thought they were the first black president and first lady get mad because they are no longer getting the votes they expected. That really got under Hillary's and Bill's skin. All he had to do was sit back and let them slit their own political wrists and it was working like a charm.

    He also could sit back and let some political figures and mouth pieces on the right slit their wrists with attacks and tactics that were either flat out racist or veiled racist attempts even if the people did not realize it.

    They could not pull the card like they did on McCain to help the base vote for bush over him in that one primary because it really would blow up in their faces with Obama.

    Problem this time is Obama and those he associated did more damage to him than both the clintons and the right could do IMO.

    All he had to do was sit back and let the same old same old political people ruin it for their candidates while he took the high road.

    However it all came crashing upon him with this reverend nippleheads arrogance, anger and racist views.

    As Danny has said, He will still win the nomination IMO but I doubt he wins the general election now. And it ultimate irony of it all is that it will be a black man that brings down the best chance for a black man to become president.
  8. burmafrd

    burmafrd Well-Known Member

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    Notice how Sasqie always finds a way to defend America's attackers and attack her defenders?
    SO Sasqie has no problem with the aids quote, or the 9/11 quote, etc.
    Not surprising.
    Obama was a member of that church for 20 years and listened to all those rants and never said anything about them untill this campaign. OF course all the media never asked him before even though the rants were pretty well known for quite a while.
  9. Jordan55

    Jordan55 Active Member

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    Unfortunately, your words have never been truer:shoot4:
    The Reverend has really crippled his chance for the Presidency
    Although in reviewing this campaign, if any mud slinging has been done, or if race was brought into the equation it was done by your ever loving power hunger Clinton's and what get's me, they are still at it, even at the expense of dividing their own party. If not for nothing, but personal gain.
    I having nothing but disgust for them and know I'm not the only one.
  10. Sasquatch

    Sasquatch Lost in the Woods

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    I wouldn't expect you to give a retired marine and member of the navy who devoted 6 years of his life serving the country the benefit of the doubt that there just might be a little more to him that the recent media caricatures.

    His words were wrong but he's not some obscure radical crank. Ask Oprah.

    Personal Information
    Born on September 22, 1941, in Philadelphia, PA; son of Rev. Jeremiah Wright, Sr. and Dr. Mary Henderson Wright; married Ramah Reed; children: Janet Marie, Jeri Lynne, Nikol, Nathan, Jamila

    Education: Virginia Union University, 1959-61; Howard University, BA, 1968, MA, 1969; University of Chicago School of Divinity, MA, 1975; United Theological Seminary, DMin, Black Sacred music, 1990.

    Religion: United Church of Christ.

    Military/Wartime Service: U.S. Marine Corps, private first class, 1961-63; U.S. Navy, hospital corpsman third class, 1964-67.

    Memberships:
    Selected: Ministers for Racial and Social Justice, United Church of Christ, 1972-; Black Theology Project, Board of Directors, 1975-95; Evangelical Health Systems, Board of Directors, 1986-89; Chicago Theological Seminary, Board of Trustees, 1999-2000; Virginia Union University, Board of Trustees, 2001-.

    Career
    Zion Church, interim pastor, 1968-69; Beth Eden Church, assistant pastor, 1969-1971; American Association of Theological Schools, researcher, 1970-72; Trinity United Church of Christ, pastor 1972-. Chicago Center for Black Religious Studies, executive director, 1974-75; Chicago Cluster of Theological Schools, lecturer, 1975-77; United Theological Seminary, professor, 1991-97; Chicago Theological Seminary, professor, 1998; Garrett Evangelical Theological Seminary, professor, 1999.

    Life's Work
    Reverend Jeremiah A. Wright, Jr. is one of the most widely acclaimed black preachers in the United States. Combining social concern, spiritual growth, and political activism, Wright, who preaches in a black traditional style, brings a message of hope, redemption, and renewal. In 1972 he became pastor of a small United Church of Christ congregation in the inner city of Chicago. After over 30 years in the pulpit, his congregation has grown to 10,000 and is the largest United Church of Christ congregation in the United States.

    Wright was born on September 22, 1941, in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, the son of Rev. Jeremiah Wright, Sr. and Dr. Mary Henderson Wright. His parents were his earliest influences, instilling in him a deep religious faith and a strong, positive image of his African-American culture. His father, who served as the pastor of Grace Baptist Church for 62 years was one of the first African Americans to receive a degree from the Lutheran Theological Seminary in Philadelphia, earning a master of sacred theology degree in 1949. Wright was educated in the public schools of Philadelphia.

    In 1959 Wright enrolled at Virginia Union University, in Richmond, where he remained until 1961. That year he left school to join the military. He served in the Second Marine Division of the U.S. Marine Corps from 1961 to 1963, achieving the rank of private first class. In 1963 he graduated as valedictorian from the Great Lakes Naval Training Center, and from 1964 to 1967, he served as a cardio pulmonary technician at the U.S. Naval Hospital in Bethesda, Maryland. During 1965 and 1966, he was awarded with three Presidential Commendations from President Lyndon B. Johnson.

    After his discharge from the military, Wright continued his education. He enrolled at Howard University in Washington, D.C., in 1967, and was awarded a bachelor's degree in 1968 and a master's degree in 1969. He then entered the University of Chicago Divinity School, receiving a master of arts degree in 1975. He ended his formal education in 1990 when he earned a Doctor of Ministry degree in black sacred music from United Theological Seminary in Dayton, Ohio.

    While continuing his studies, Wright also began making forays into a career in the ministry. Between 1968 and 1971 he served short-term stints first as interim pastor and then as an associate pastor. From 1970 to 1972 he was a researcher for the American Association of Theological Schools. He was also a columnist for Chicago's Independent Bulletin during 1972. Then, on March 1, 1972, 31-year-old Wright was hired as the pastor of Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago, a position he continues to hold.

    When Wright joined the staff of Trinity United Church of Christ as senior pastor, the inner city church boasted just 87 active members, most of whom came from the neighborhood surrounding the church. Wright embraced his new congregation and took up the phrase coined by his predecessor Rev. Dr. Reuben Sheares, "Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian." Within months the church had adopted the phrase as its motto and vision. Under Wright's leadership, fueled by his passion, and motivated by his preaching, the congregation began to grow by leaps and bounds. By 2004 there were over 10,000 members, with people coming from across the metro area. The congregation, which proudly notes its diverse socio-economic mix, dedicated a new 2,700 worship center in 1997.

    According to Wright, the Christian call extends in two directions: upward to God and outward to the community. As a result, Wright takes seriously the need to reach out to others, especially Chicago's inner-city residents. Trinity has 70 ministry programs, 22 of which target youth. Half of the programs target the community, including adult education, literacy, computer, child care, and education for unemployed or low-income families. For Wright, religion, social outreach, and political activism go hand in hand. He vocally opposed the U.S. involvement in Iraq beginning in 2003 and has tackled such previously taboo issues such as AIDS from the pulpit.

    As Wright's reputation grew as a powerful and dynamic preacher in the black sermonic tradition who incorporated music, politics, and social issues into his sermons, he became a sought-after lecturer and preacher. In 1993 he was named second on Ebony's list of the top black preachers in North America. Once admitting that he had considered a career as a seminary professor, Wright satisfied his desire to teach by accepting invitations to lecture and teach at numerous universities and seminaries. He first stepped in front of a classroom in 1974 as an adjunct professor at Chicago Theological Seminary. In 1975 he was an adjunct professor at the Catholic Theological Union in Chicago, and from 1976 to 1992 he served as an adjunct professor for the Seminary Consortium for Urban Pastoral Education. He has also taught courses at United Theological Seminary, North Park Theological Seminary, and Garrett Evangelical Theological Seminary in Chicago.

    Wright has authored several books, including Africans Who Shaped Our Faith, Good News! Sermons of Hope for Today's Families, and What Makes You So Strong? Sermons of Joy and Strength from Jeremiah A. Wright, Jr. According to Cleophus J. LaRue in The Heart of Black Preaching, in his title sermon of What Makes You So Strong, Wright "demonstrates the power of the mighty sovereign at work in the lives of black people in twentieth century America. This sermon focuses on the root of black strength and survivability. Wright makes it clear throughout the sermon that the source of all strength, and especially black strength, is none other than the Spirit of God." As in his preaching, in his writing Wright focuses on the dual issues of corporate concern and spiritual sustenance. His latest publication, What Can Happen When We Pray: A Daily Devotional, was published in 2002.

    In recognition of his contributions, Wright has been awarded seven honorary doctoral degrees. He has also served on a number of boards and commissions, including serving on the board of trustees for Virginia Union University and Chicago Theological Seminary. He continues to be a highly sought after preacher, teacher, and lecturer.
  11. Hostile

    Hostile Tacos are a good investment Zone Supporter

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    Damn. Shouldn't have posted this.

    I'll learn.
  12. Heisenberg

    Heisenberg Pow! Pow!

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    Ha. It doesn't hurt. It just stirs up some more discussion. It just happens to be the same discussion that's going on in every other thread. :D
  13. burmafrd

    burmafrd Well-Known Member

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    As usual Sasqie avoids the point.
    Wright has been ranting like that for years. No one seemed to care.
    Which just encouraged him.
    And just because he served does not mean he gets a free pass on ANYTHING.
    His rants are racist and filled with hate.
    There is no excuse, no matter how hard sasqie tries to find one.
  14. Sasquatch

    Sasquatch Lost in the Woods

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    Hate the sin, love the sinner. That's essentially Obama's position. Obviously, he's a little more down with the moral precepts of our good lord and savior than his vitriolic critics from the so-called religious right.
  15. Cajuncowboy

    Cajuncowboy Preacher From The Black Lagoon

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    The best hope the dems had is now toast. And this isn't even the general election yet. :lmao2:
  16. Cajuncowboy

    Cajuncowboy Preacher From The Black Lagoon

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    Yeah, that church he goes to really preaches tolerance.

    :bang2:
  17. jay cee

    jay cee Active Member

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    It's funny that you mention that speech, Sasquatch. My father believes that is what got King murdered. As long as he was only working on Civil Rights it was ok, but when he started talking about the unjust war, he had to be silenced.
  18. REDVOLUTION

    REDVOLUTION Return to Dominance

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    I can stop right there and comment.


    You really have to question his judgment, his decision making just based on that fact that he stayed with that pastor/church.

    Even if you believe or subscribe to the USA is wrong in alot of ways. You CANT be that blatant with it.

    Attack it and fix it or try but the approach needs to be different.


    Now... if Obama truly believes Wright and agrees with him and is bitter as well(as his wife seems to be also) and wants Americans to pay (in his own way) then I understand why he stayed with Wright.
  19. REDVOLUTION

    REDVOLUTION Return to Dominance

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    There is so much time until the Presidential election. Nothing is written yet.

    If Obama wins the primary... it could get to a point where the American People become victims of "attack blindness"(similar to Ad Blindness - when you see so many advertisements that you ignore them) and just go with the rock star no matter what... time will tell
  20. theogt

    theogt Surrealist Zone Supporter

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    It was personal integrity that forced him to stand by a racist, America-hating pastor? Interesting. Of course, when Bush stands by someone who has "warts" instead of throwing them under the bus, it isn't personal integrity that impresses you, it's cronyism and stubborness.

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