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Is age the main reason some on here don't want Kiffin?

Discussion in 'Fan Zone' started by dragon_mikal, Jan 10, 2013.

  1. dadymat

    dadymat I'm kind of a Big Deal

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    whats the difference in that or being in a 3-4 and needing NT and DE's and safeties that we dont have?...the man has been coaching defenses for 40 years...I think he'll figure it out
  2. wileedog

    wileedog Well-Known Member

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    The difference is the 4-3 under doesn't blitz nearly as much as a 3-4 typically does. It relies on the front 4 to create pressure and the coverage and tackling to be solid from the safeties.

    Outside of Ware and Spencer we don't have DLineman who can create consistent pressure, and Spencer may not even be here next year. Our safeties are JAGs, and even one of our CBs is still a bit suspect at tackling.

    I'm sure he's a very smart guy and knows more about defense than any of us ever will - but that doesn't mean you can turn completely switch defensive philosophies on a dime in one season without some dramatic personnel turnover.

    Which will come at the expense of the Oline BTW.
  3. Rack Bauer

    Rack Bauer Federal Agent

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    If I turned 100% against Jerry Jones I'd be at 3000% against Jerry Jones.
  4. StanleySpadowski

    StanleySpadowski Active Member

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    This has nothing to do with Kiffin, Jerry Jones will own the team until he passes away so some people will never be happy. They'd be better off switching teams rather than make themselves so miserable. It must be a crappy way to live.
  5. dadymat

    dadymat I'm kind of a Big Deal

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    i know all that, my point is we need d lineman and safeties either way, and i trust Kiffin to help find some more than anyone on staff..plus recently being on college staffs he probably has a few in mind already.........

    and everyone keeps repeating the catch phrase of the day about safeties but where are all these HOF safeties at that play for the Bears, Seahawks and the Old Bucs?....hell most people probably cant name 3 safeties over Lovie's entire time with the Bears.....
    I know there are a few you can name but its been a successful defensive philosophy for a long time....and it gets done with average to good players to ,as long as you get some pressure and force the underneath stuff like its designed to do ......
    its not good to have trust safeties in either formation if your not getting pressure, and its easier to find lineman you can get constant pressure with than it is LBers
  6. FuzzyLumpkins

    FuzzyLumpkins The Boognish

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    Don't speak for others. Pigeonholing everyone you dont agree with as a single unit is poor form.

    Now you want me to support a guy that is going to run something other than what he was successful at when he was actually good and hope that it works?

    gmb. You know I am not a hater type but having doubts about a guy thats been out of the league for 4 years, did not perform well in the college ranks in the interim and now is going to be forced to change what he did that was successful before and get it to work with personnel that is not suited for his defense is reasonalbe.

    Signing Carr and spending our top two picks on Claiborne last offseason and then mitigate the impact those moves by moving to a scheme that does not maximize what they are best at is poor management. And Jones criticized Ryan for no philosophy or method.

    Throw on top of that Lynch and Brooks coming out and saying that the defense does not work unless you have the talent at the proper positions to have a chance does not sit well.

    I am trying to be optimistic. I want to think that perhaps the middling ineffective performance we got from our corners playing off in zones under Ryan would have helped them grow into the role or that Sensy may suddenly become proficient in zone when he is a great man coverage safety but these are the guys that we have and I just do not see a fit.


    I am going to need a lot more convincing than what I have gotten so far and I am open to being convinced.
  7. StanleySpadowski

    StanleySpadowski Active Member

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    Dallas' best pressure came from a four man front. Hatcher has developed into one of the better interior rushers in the league and should be even more successful under a run and read scheme rather than the read and react scheme Ryan often employed. If Ratliff returns to the team and returns to form, he'll be even more of a pass rusher occasionally shooting a gap instead of constantly lining head up. The other DE is an issue as Crawford hasn't shown much rushing ability and if Spencer stays, he's shown that he cannot beat a tackle as all but one of his sacks (last I looked) were either unblocked, TE/RBs or follow ups.


    LBs are not an issue at all. Lee and Carter compare favorably to Urlacher and Briggs in their prime and Wilber and Albright both fit the SLB mold.

    Safety needed upgraded regardless of scheme. That may come from Church and Johnson getting healthy or it may need addressed in the off season but sliding to a 4-3 doesn't change that at all.
  8. Idgit

    Idgit Ice up, son. Ice up! Staff Member

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    I'm lukewarm on him, and to the extent I am, it's because he's old as dirt.
  9. Rack Bauer

    Rack Bauer Federal Agent

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    Ratliff is a WAY better fit as a 4-3 DT then he is as a 3-4 NG.
  10. supercowboy8

    supercowboy8 Well-Known Member

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    Age isn't my thing, it our CBs that we just spent two draft picks and alot of money on. Both are press man corners and so is Scandrick and none of the three can play zone. Only guy we have that can play in a tampa 2 is Jenkins and he is leaving.

    It will be like how Phili brought in Nnamdi to play zone. It doesn't work.

    I want a 4-3 defense like what Seattle, Denver, and Oakland runs. Three big DL on the line and one pass rusher with a pass rushing OLB and corners that play press.
  11. supercowboy8

    supercowboy8 Well-Known Member

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    at this point you are correct. he will be a good one gap penetrating DT in a tampa to but our CBs do not match what Kiffen would run.

    Claiborne can most likely adjust but Carr can not. Everytime he got burnt was playing zone with no safety help. He is a press man corner with safety help over top, that is what we were running until Church got hurt and under Kiffen he will be playing off zone all the time.

    Also in the tamps 2 you have to have two good safeties, one that can roam the back field and another that can play in the box and cover TEs man to man. Maybe we can move Carr to SS but that would be a waste to all that money we are paying him.
  12. weaver21

    weaver21 Member

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    Carr played zone in Kansas City while Herm Edwards was there so I don't think it would be too difficult for him to adjust.
  13. Rack Bauer

    Rack Bauer Federal Agent

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    Our CB's will do fine in that system. What we don't have is an elite DL to make the opposing QB's day miserable to help those CB's out.
  14. wileedog

    wileedog Well-Known Member

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    I think saying Hatcher at age 30 developed into "one of the better interior rushers in the league" is a pretty darn big stretch, don't you? And there is nothing behind him above average.

    Pretty big if. He's 31 and has taken a beating in his career. No sure why he is suddenly going to return to who he was at 27.

    Spencer is going to get paid big bucks by someone, and I hope its not us.


    Agreed and Lee and Carter are my favorite reasons for this move.

    Yes and no. If we stayed with an aggressive blitzing 34 then there isn't the onus on them that there will be with a consistent 4 man rush. And they HAVE to tackle. Again, its not do or die, but there is no question safeties are more important in a bend-don't-break Cover or Press 2 than they are in a blitzing 34. Its a question of needing them upgraded, or needing them UPGRADED.

    And again, all of this personnel need is set on top of an Oline that was scheduled for a desperately needed complete overhaul.
  15. Rack Bauer

    Rack Bauer Federal Agent

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    I think you got it backwards. Carr is better suited for that D then Claiborne. Carr's style reminds me of a poor man's Ronde Barber (in zone), but better in Man.
  16. StanleySpadowski

    StanleySpadowski Active Member

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    There's less than a half dozen interior lineman that have outperformed Hatcher as a pass rusher over the last few seasons. He's not Smith, Atkins or Watt but when he's rushed, he's generated almost as much pressure as anyone. Check the numbers, it'll surprise you.

    He's probably the most underrated player on the Cowboys.

    If you're hoping for a massive OL turnover, prepare to be disappointed. If Costa gets healthy, it wouldn't surprise me if the penciled in starters in '13 look an awful lot like '12 with maybe Parnell instead of Free and that's purely a salary situation.
  17. dadymat

    dadymat I'm kind of a Big Deal

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    sorry you dont approve....
  18. wileedog

    wileedog Well-Known Member

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    Hatcher was almost cut a couple years ago, and even if he had a good year last season I would put it to fluke at age 30. To depend on that performance going forward is not a given. I'll do some more digging though and take a look, maybe I'm wrong, but that's what my eyeballs tell me.

    I was hoping for just that until I found out we were switching defenses. Now we may be screwed on both sides of the ball next year.
  19. Reverend Conehead

    Reverend Conehead Active Member

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    It's not age that concerns me about Kiffen. I worry that his defensive philosophy may not fit the players that we have.
  20. Paul78

    Paul78 New Member

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    He's dirt old and led the almighty Trojans to an unimpressive 46th ranked defense :banghead:

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