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Jimmy Johnson knew if a player could play!

Discussion in 'Fan Zone' started by Arkyvarminter, Nov 9, 2012.

  1. KJJ

    KJJ You Have an Axe to Grind

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    Right below it there should be another sticky thread titled "puke on Jerry" that's another one that's been going on around here lately.


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  2. Mash

    Mash Active Member

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    :bow: :laugh2: :laugh2:
  3. BraveHeartFan

    BraveHeartFan We got a hat. I want a ring.

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    Jimmy was damn good.

    But lets not pretend that he always got it right.

    I've read many times how Jimmy wanted James Francis the year they got Emmitt and didn't want Smith. They had to basically beat him into making the moves that brought Emmitt here.


    So yes Jimmy was damn good but he wasn't perfect and if he'd had his way there the Cowboys would have had a linebacker who flamed out of the NFL in a minute and would have missed on one of the greatest runningbacks in NFL history.


    He's also the guy that I've read told Brad Sham he was seriously considering going with Walsh in Dallas, over Aikman, and was instead talked out of that and finally traded Walsh to avoid the issue. If Jimmy had done want he really wanted to at that time then you wouldn't have had those 3 Superbowls.
  4. Chuck 54

    Chuck 54 Well-Known Member

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    Jimmy was a great coach and a wheeler-dealer in the draft.
    However...

    1. Aikman and Irvin were not his brilliance, and if he'd had his way, Emmitt would not have been a Cowboy either as Jimmy favored the LB James Francis whom he was unable to get...sometimes a little luck helps.

    2. Jimmy missed on a ton of draft picks...that's documented. He traded Hershall for a ton of draft picks and continued that philosophy of stockpiling picks...the more you have, the more you'll hit on even when you miss on others.

    With Aikman on the team, he still traded what later became the #1 pick in the draft due to his 1-15 record, for his Miami QB, Steve Walsh, a horrible bust in the NFL...now he later traded Walsh for a 1,2,3, but that was one example of a stupid trade and poor judge of talent on a guy he knew better than anyone.

    Some of what Jimmy did was brilliant; some of it was LUCKY. He never got involved in the offense or the defense, and he went through a few coordinators before the offense got going.

    What I think Jimmy was, moreso than talent evaluator or franchise builder, is a head coach, free of other duties, who could push everyone's buttons and get the most out of young players. Even then, it can be argued that the Cowboys were not doing much until he traded for Charles Haley and pushed the right buttons with that guy...we never won before or after Haley...I believe he was the missing piece that put that team over the top, a guy who pressured the QB almost every play and was never taken out of a game by double-teaming.

    And yet, when Jimmy moved on to Miami, he was a failure...he failed at putting the finishing touches on an already talented team, and he failed to get the veterans on that team to react to his methods the way they did in Dallas.

    Everything in the NFL has an element of talent and a dose of good fortune and timing.
  5. bsheeern

    bsheeern Well-Known Member

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    Lots of good info and knowledge here.

    The truth lies somewhere in the middle of the Jimmy and Jerry Days.

    If anyone really wants to understand the complete truth, then you better keep an open mind.

    BOTH Jimmy and Jerry are BOTH to Blame and Praise for all of it. They BOTH have ego issues and need those egos stroked. Jerry wanted his "football" ego stroked and Jimmy wanted his "executive" ego stroked.

    Instead of putting their PERSONAL EGOS aside, they got into a "ding ding swinging" contest. Who could make themselves feel the best and get the all mighty recognition they wanted or didn't want the other to get about what they had accomplished together.

    Troy Aikman said it best. He made reference to the fact that they as a team we preached to daily to put your personal issues aside and commit to doing what's Best for the Dallas Cowboys. Yet he said the Two men who were supposed to be the leaders and examples of that exact philosophy weren't willing to do that.
  6. Plankton

    Plankton Well-Known Member

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    I'll repeat what I said in another thread to this very point, and there is no offense intended with this:

    This is the single dumbest argument used to knock Jimmy Johnson. Absolutely, completely one hundred percent dumb.

    Outside of the team with the first pick in the draft, most teams very likely covet another player, and do not end up selecting them. Does that make them lucky?

    The best examples are the drafting of Joe Montana and Tom Brady. Bill Walsh tried to trade up and get his former Stanford QB, Steve Dils. He didn't get him, and ended up with Montana. Does that make his selection less brilliant, because he wanted Dils? With regards to Brady, Belichick had to be talked into selecting him by the late Dick Rehbein - in the sixth round, no less. Is it a worse selection as a result?

    Did Johnson blow draft picks? Absolutely. Alexander Wright was a terrible pick, as were James Richards, Rhondy Weston and Mike Middleton. The point was that he was smart enough strategically to revolutionize and use the "fishnet" approach to maximize his odds with extra draft selections. Who do you think that Belichick learned his methods from?

    Johnson was also ably supported by Bob Ackles, Dick Mansperger and John Wooten, who are the most underrated and most underappreciated people with strong hands in building the Super Bowl winning teams.
  7. alsmith

    alsmith Member

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    Jimmy did a great job coaching using fear, just as H.S. coaches use today and college coaches use today, because the players have no choice in the matter, but in the NFL that will not work with the NFL players anymore, as for players just release them and another team will be glad to pick them up and play and pay them.

    Remember, for those who have forgotten, Jimmy the great, he did not want QB Troy as the QB, he wanted QB Walsh from Miami as his QB, and Jimmy the great, he did not want RB Emmitt, he said he was to small and slow, he wanted to draft a LB that was drafted just ahead of his pick, ahead of him and Jimmy had to be talked into taking Emmitt.

    So as for how great he was, yes he was a very good coach but he also proved in Miami that his coaching style and his system does not and will not work in this Free Agent area, known as today's NFL, that is and was the reason he QUIT coaching, he knew it then and now because players would not take the abuse that he shovel out, as he even said he was too hard on the players and the players today, forget about it.

    Why do you think Jimmy would not come back to coaching, he has enough ego of him in him, not to want to destroy his image, remember he a legend in his own mind, and yes he did win here and thank you Jimmy and Jerry for the SB wins together but your ego Jimmy got in your own way and it still shows today, is that enough credit for him..

    Jimmy you did something that people should never do,,, you disrespected your boss, instead of saying we build this team, as so for you and the players that was signed, and to give the man that sign those big checks as the owner and GM and scouts that took those trips and people that worked hard to put all that info together for you and coaches,

    Jimmy you totally disrespected the man who took a chance on you, Jerry was told not to because of Jimmy big ego, other teams would not touch him because of that, but Jimmy you totally disrespect him the owner in a bar in front of friends and other coaches, by the way I would have FIRED your a-s-s too.

    Remember with Jimmy its all or none, and he has more than enough of him for everyone..
  8. Marktui

    Marktui Active Member

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    No doubt Jimmy hand a serious hand in creating the Cowboys. Again the previous poster said, it lies somewhere in the middle of all folk lore.

    Jimmy had the perfect scenario coming in, 1st pick in the draft, qb is there. The famous trade of Herschel which netted him tons of picks. He had plan b free agency, where he plucked veteran cast offs from other teams and probably the best equalizer of all-he had no free agency meaning losing our good players as well as no salary cap.

    As far as drafting, yes we have been abysmal, but the last two drafts seem to be wielding better players. Sean Lee, Bruce Carter, Mo Claiborne, DeMarco Murray, Tyron Smith, Tyron Crawford. Hopefully that trend keeps going.
  9. BraveHeartFan

    BraveHeartFan We got a hat. I want a ring.

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    Ummm...yes. That absolutely makes their pick complete luck. And if you're trying to claim that Walsh or Bill are brilliant for their picks of Montana and Brady then to each their own but those are as lucky a picks as a person could ever get.


    Also you're talking about guys they lucked into later rounds in the draft. Jimmy wanted Francis earlier in the first, and could have gotten him, but was finally talked out of it by the scouts who said Emmitt was the guy. This isn't brilliant on Jimmy's part it's brilliant on his staffs part and good on Jimmy to have finally given in and listened.


    But that's not brilliant and the lucky picks of Montana and even more so Brady are anything but brilliant. They're luck personified.
  10. KJJ

    KJJ You Have an Axe to Grind

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    Jimmy missed on some picks and trades but a few of his hits were knocked right out of the ball park at key positions. His very first pick Aikman ended up being a HOF QB. The very next year his first pick Emmitt who he had to trade up to get ended up being a HOF RB who's the NFL's all time leading rusher.

    The deal to acquire Charles Haley from SF was one of the most brilliant moves ever it was the key piece that led to the Cowboys becoming the team of the 90's instead of the 49ers. A lot of Jimmy's detractors will point out that he was aided by the Walker trade and all the draft picks it led to but it was a gutsy move and like Jimmy said it's what you do with the picks that counts.

    He mentioned the Rams made a similar trade a few years earlier with the Colts for Eric Dickerson but the trade didn't help the Rams because they didn't come up with much with the draft picks they acquired.
  11. tyke1doe

    tyke1doe Well-Known Member

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    Jimmy was good at finding players for "his" scheme. Russell Maryland, Alvin Harper and Larry Brown were good players with the Cowboys. With other teams, uh, not so much.

    Jimmy knew how to mold guys into a team, even if they were marginal talents. But you need marginal players to do their part too.
  12. KJJ

    KJJ You Have an Axe to Grind

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    Anytime you select a player later in the draft who ends up being a HOF player it's pure luck. Had anyone including Bill Walsh knew Joe Montana would become what he did Montana would have been the first pick in the draft. The same with Tom Brady who had several QB's drafted ahead of him. The draft is a crapshoot regardless of where you're picking. Blair Thomas was the highest rated back in the 90 draft even Jimmy and his staff had him rated ahead of Emmitt.

    Keith McCants who lasted only 7 years in the league with 3 different teams was the highest rated LB in the 90 draft and was taken one spot ahead of Junior Seau who'll be inducted into Canton in a few years. Whether you're picking #1 overall or #32 the draft is a roll of the dice. A lot of players turn out better than others because of their head coach and situation they're drafted into with a particular team.
  13. jazzcat22

    jazzcat22 Well-Known Member

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    Flagler refused to play for Jimmy.....so I yhink they worked out another deal, with a 3rd team that Flagler went to, and Dallas ended up with a draft pick.
  14. jazzcat22

    jazzcat22 Well-Known Member

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    And contributing to the luck of drafting Montana was the Cowboys.....Tex Schramm said the ONLY time he was ever talked into or out of a draft pick was Montana....He wanted to select joe, but they had Danny White taking over for Roger...they needed a TE, so they drafted Doug Cosbie....

    Was this a bad decision on the Cowboys part...no, but was luck for Walsh...

    Now the BIG ?????
    If this was Jerry making this decision....how would he be lambasted...but Tex, Gil & Tom....wouldn't....
  15. Plankton

    Plankton Well-Known Member

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    The Francis scenario was not one that he was talked out out - he couldn't trade ahead of the Bengals, who ended up selecting him. He could not have gotten him. He also looked into trading up for Ray Agnew in the draft that year, and couldn't.

    Again, using this example to knock Jimmy is completely asinine, because it doesn't talk about the actual results. Especially when every other team in the league has the same thing happen to them - see the Montana selection.
  16. jazzcat22

    jazzcat22 Well-Known Member

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    Was is Agnew or Lamar Lathon? Or was one of them in another draft he tried to trade up for?
  17. Randy White

    Randy White Well-Known Member Zone Supporter

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    :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:



    Stick this comment in the homepage so EVERYBODY who comes in here sees it.
  18. KJJ

    KJJ You Have an Axe to Grind

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    The Cowboys got a 3rd round pick back from SF so that may have been why. Flagler ended up with the Cardinals. He was probably afraid he would end up on Jimmy's asthma field. He lasted 2 years in Phoenix rushing for a grand total of 92 yards on 14 carries. Darrin Nelson was another back who didn't want to play for Jimmy he was one of the veteran players the Cowboys got in the Walker deal.

    I hope both he and Flagler enjoyed sitting home out of football watching the Cowboys win their 3 SB's. Even had both players played for Jimmy they would have been cut by the time the Cowboys started winning championships.
  19. Arkyvarminter

    Arkyvarminter Well-Known Member

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    In the end, who did Jimmy go with as his starting QB...Enough said
  20. dallasdave

    dallasdave Well-Known Member

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    you are right=Jimmy knew if someone was a player=we need that now:bow:

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