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Lebreton thread cont

Discussion in 'Off-topic Zone' started by LaTunaNostra, Jun 5, 2004.

  1. LaTunaNostra

    LaTunaNostra He Made the Difference

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    Why? Who did that? Can you point to one post by any poster that maintained ALL
    criticism of Carter is racially motivated? More likely, posters sick to death of the yahoo faction holding sway, and the shills like Lebreton who pander to the basest human instincts making them feel comfortable in their bigotry, "over-reacted" to something someone said. Over-reacted because between the over racist "monkey" type remarks, and the more subtle, but far more insidious aspersions on Q's intellect rhetoric, there come a certain "breaking point". I know I've reached it.

    I think it's wrong and incredibly stupid, to classify ALL critics of Carter as racist, too. I have seen NO Carter fan do that, tho. What I have seen is fans like myself who carefully and continually specfify that it's a small but constant minority that makes one feel one is wallowing in a sewer when reading certan sports boards, AND "writers". I have oft been a critic of QC myself, and will continue to be so. Some of my very favorite posting buddies here are hardly enamoured of Quincy's abilities. They do NOT sound like Lebreton and his crew. However, I will not hesitate to throw my longwinded counterpunch at the covert or overt racism. Not anymore.

    Well, my question is how are you qualified to say anyone is "mentally capable" of ANYTHING? Seriously, I know PHDs in developmental psychology who have never dared make such a diagnosis, even of severely developmentally delayed children.
    It is amazing a layman would feel so bold as to think he can quantify, evaluate, and pronounce final judgment on a capacity Stephen Jay Gould often called "immeasurable", and that is human intelligence.

    Your claiming Carter lacks the intelligence to be an NFL QB may not be "racist", but it is incredibly naive. Have you ever heard anyone who actually works in the NFL say some player lacks the intelligence to play any position? They may say "he just doesn't get it" as Tuna sometimes does, but that is a FAR cry from the claim you knowthe limitations on another's cognitive skills, especially someone you have never even met.

    The "racism" comes into play if Carter (or maybe Carter and Kordell and Akili) are the ONLY QBs you ever said this of. Did you say it, even think it, of McNown, or Druckenmiller, or Rob Johnson or any host of guys washed out of the league because they were bright enough, but lacked that special speed of lightening fast processing that so few people have? Do white flops with obvious speed of processing and decision making issues fail because of "speed of the game", but black QBS fail because of lack of brain power? The labels we use show our racist line of thinking, and the very definition of racism is a belief that one race is inferior to another. One race THINKS better than another.

    Umm, are you also a trained or perhaos an amateur linguist? Suppose you tell me exactly what it is about Carter's speech, particularly the content, that convinces you he's dumb. My guess the deep south accent, or the so-called "lisp" are the features of his speech that sound 'not like you' therefore, he's "no rocket scientist". Believe, me up here in the northeast folks think Jerry Jones is dumb because he has a southern drawl. Would you consider them both ignorant and prejudiced for thinking so?

    I would.

    As for rocket scienctists, I don't know any, but I know the job description is not open to you and me, not just Quincy.

    I disagree. It is not "very unfortunate". It is very EVIL. It is very IGNORANT, and it demeans us ALL. You may "concede" racism as a given of human nature, best IGNORED. I do not. You may think it's harmless. I do not. You may think overlooking it, conceding it, is the way to live one's life. I think the old saying "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem" is most certainly true. That is why I "called out" Lebreton, which evidently upset you. I don't like eating dung and pretending it didn't taste like sh*t.

    And you would be correct. I'd change that numerous to most, tho.

    And there is a reason Wayne Chrebet's jersey consistently outsold that of another, a much better Jet, Curtis Martin. A reason WC's jersey was the second best selling in the NFL for years and why Urlacher's is the best now, why Jason Sehorn was so overrated, and why ANY white player drafted often gets a little extra love.

    Some WHITE fans identify more with white players. And some BLACK fans identify more with black players. This is a bias "for" and an undeniable one. It isn't necessarily harmful, tho I long for the day it ends . The problem comes when the bias turns "anti". And in Carter's case, the ongoing "anti" has turned SOME fans way over to Carter's side. It's a reaction to the injustice and flat out nastiness, plain and simple.

    [quote[We all need to look at both sides of the coin. So many critics and supporters are blind to the other side.[/quote]

    Agreed!
    Weneed to "walk in the other guy's shoes" once in awhile. I do that when I try to imagine myself as Quincy Carter at his freaking worksite, throwing a pass OR an interception, and some ahole in the stands is yelling "monkey" at him. Or the N word at a game. If I were Q and went to some of our more less enlightened boards, or even here at times, or if I were Q and turned on the sports radio. What I would FEEL like to hear myself discussed as a "lisping" *******, a "r-e-t-ar-r-d". A person who lacks the intelligence to play pro QB,when in reality, his speed of game and decision making devleopment are far from unusual for a good pro athlete.

    How I would attempt to deal with it is my question. Live with it ona DAILY basis, because it is the small but hurtful indignities of daily life as racial minorities in this country, that our black citizens have to bear, each and every day.

    I wonder if we would be strong enough to bear it. Some people have never, in ALL their lives, felt what it is like to be a looked down on minority, everything you say and do representing your race, not just yourself, to the always quick to stereotype majoirty. I think your advice is wise. We should all imagine what it is like to be Quincy Carter, or any african american fan, listening to the "debate". Were it me, there wouldn't ne enoug hmoney in the world to compensate for being so fundamentally disrepscted by so-called fans. And frankly, in some sports venues, this type of "freedom of speech" is quickly followed by security and an ouster.

    Apparently, in Big D, it is not.

    Show me where I did that. Or anyone else did, for that matter. That's a straw man argument, and one that won't fly with me. The truth is, most people don't want to acknowledge that the problem, the injustice, even exists. Having someone BELOW us makes OUR LIVES better, so why should we want to see a black man get "handed" a leadership position. We waltz through our 70-80 years on a lifelong affirmative action progam that comes along with the color of our white skin, and incredibly, feel somehow shortchanged because a Quincy Carter is in a place we have decided he shouldn't be. (where he should be, well that's for BIll Parcells to decide, I think, and Carter himself, by stepping up)

    Push comes to shove we admit in a racist society we benefit from white privilege, but we refuse to see the opposite side of that coin of yours, that if WE are prvileged by our skin color, anyone who is not white is diminished. On top of that we allow, we concede, the overt nastinees, by not being human enough to be appalled by it.

    I could name many. The point is what do we do about the FEW who show their vileness, and the more who make profoundly ignorant racially charged and motivated racist statements about black intelligence or any other topic they are approaching from sheer stupidity and baseness? Shut up and accept it, as ultimately it DOES benefit all of us white folks if the perception remains we are smarter, better, more deserving than blacks> Or make a stand. Name it for what it is, DEPLORE it. And refuse to concede it.

    That's what I'd like to see the next time I raed a post by a fan who tells us he heard Q or another player called a monkey at a practice. I'd like to see a thread 500 posts long calling it out, with honest and outraged moral conviction.

    I'd like to see every remark of the "intelligence" variety questioned. Let's see what the credentials are of these folks seem to think they're qualified to pass judgement on anyone's mental faculties, or developmental limitations. Idiots. I'd like to see the "handed to" garbage called out constantly as well . A year from now Drew Henson will he REALLY "handed" the starting job, and he many never have taken a live action snap when he is. Is he going to be accused of being "handed" anything. Maybe so, but if he is not, then those who cry foul on Carter ARE racists, and hypocrites, through and through.

    I'd like to see ALL of us, white or black, constantly examining the way we think, and the environment made us think that way.

    There's always the danger of reading too much into anything. But the greater likelihood is we are being manipulated constantly because we don't take the time to think about HOW we ARE being hornswaggled. Allowing ourselves to be convinced some dark shadow will just have to descend on Quincy Carter because he is incapable of acting maturely, rationally and intelligently (read: white) makes us dupes. Dupes.

    The other side of that coin is some of us became supporters of Carter in part because of the racial nastiness - the covert type as much, if not more, than the overt. Dale Hanson has said for him it is not about Carter at this point, but about his "detractors". Meaning, he so despises the vileness of the yahoos that he wants to see Q succeed just because they don't!

    I must admit it, I now in that camp as well. But I can fairly easily distinguish the people who just don't think he has it, from those who just don't think he has it because since he's a a black man, he couldn't possibly get better,and from those who don't WANT him to have it because he's black, and every day he is the starting QB of the Dallas Cowboys revolts them. Sometimes people use some sort of persona on the net, but inevitably we all reveal what we are. All of us. Every single day.

    I hear ya. :) I don't think he "regressed terribly" but that his skill set was nowhere near sharp enough to overcome the run game issues. He could not pick the O up and carry it when someone had to carry it. He HAS to improve this year or he is gone. Well, of course, he's GONE anyway, but just for the sake of his "future and the Cowboys chances this year, I hope he starts noticably "progressing"

    This post is undoubtedly filled with typos, but I am too tired to check it. I'm signing off on this thread now, as I've said what I had to say. It probably should be moved to the off topic board now its gone so socio-political. Regardless, I won't be backing off my stand either on self examination or that of the haters. It's come to the point I'm sickened by the ongoing smugness on issues of Carter's intellect, learning curve, emotional state, and "unearned" job. And many of those who react so strongly to real or imagined accusations of racism are just the very ones who miggt want to look deep deep inside once in awhile and examine why they think a certain way.

    If anyone thinks he or she can grow up in such a racist, segregated society, and NOT be affected by it to some degree, he is mad. In a society built on 250 years of colonial and young nation slavery, (the economic system that created the early wealth, and which we all benefit from even to this day, because this nation's hegemony, and our standard of living, was largely built on the sweat, blood, and freedom of Africans), followed by another 100 years of forced segregation, and occupational apartheid both north and south, plus the lingering effects of the ideology of racism that are embedded in our institutions today, how could one NOT be racist?

    How could one not believe on some conscious or subconscious level the white racel superior to the black? Nigh on 400 years of slavery, segregation, and racial ideology is engrained in us. It's a part of our history, and culture. It's a constant through the change. And although slavery has been almost a constant in human history, we are still one of the few nations in history that chose to enslave men based on nothing but the color of their skin. In order to do such a heinous thing, for over 250 years on our continent, we HAD to think the black race inferior.

    We couldn't have looked in the mirror if we had been doing such terrible things to "equals, so we invented a pretty lie. We told ourselves the white man's burden as to subjugate, Christianize, and "save" the black man. The free labor aspect was incidental - the children we ripped from their mother's arms to bring to the New World we considered fortunate. We were saving the heathens, not enriching ourselves.

    Racism is the ideology, the vestige, the underpinning of the economic institution of slavery. But slavery could be ended, finally, with a terrible war and the stroke of a pen. The accompanying idea that enslaving blacks was "right" because they were morally and INTELLECTUALLY inferior, made by God to be subservient to the white race, has not been so easy a legacy to escape.

    I know I am a 'racist'. I couldn't NOT be, growing up at the tail end of 400 years of insitutionalized racism.

    If anyone calls me or insinuates I am a racist, I will say yes, of course I am, I alone wasn't going to escape the indoctrination, but I'm trying hard not to be one.
  2. junk

    junk I've got moxie

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    I can't point to one single poster that has maintained all criticism of Carter is racially motivated. However, the majority of threads that contain critcism of Carter will inevitably contain an insinuation that the Carter critic is a racist. Most of the time, it is a lot less subtle than the article written by Lebreton.

    I am not, that is my opinion. And in turn, there is no one on this board who is qualified to call him capable of doing anything either. We don't deal with him on a daily basis. We don't see how he performs on a daily basis. Maybe he is mentally deficient, we won't know. However, from his press conferences and performance on the field, I don't feel that he is ahead of the pack mentally. Has nothing to do with his lisp. In fact, I never mentioned it. Has more to do with the content of what he says.

    I am not saying only black QBs are shorted in the mental dept. Leaf was obviously defiecient. Jeff George. Hutch. Just off the top of my head.

    I don't think Lebreton is manipulating me. I honestly don't care what Carter's race is. I care that he is deficient as a QB. I don't think I am a dupe because I don't read into a Lebreton article. I think because I don't see race as an issue in some article, maybe I am less sensitive than some. My opinions of Carter come from my viewing of his play and to be called a dupe because of that opinion pisses me off.

    I honestly hope Carter succeeds. It is best for the Cowboys. I just don't think he will. I also think people see racism where it might not exist. Believe it or not, there are people out there that really don't care. I am one of those. The transgressions of the past can never be forgotten. However, we can work hard to overcome those transgressions and work to make the world a place where race truly does not matter. It is truly unfortunate that race is even an issue in society today. I am looking for the best QB for the Dallas Cowboys. I think it is my right to believe that it is not Quincy Carter without being called a racist or having my motives called into question.

    Bottom line, there are people that go overboard on both extremes. It is probably those people that annoy the hell out of the moderates. I am doing my best to see both sides of the issue. I hope others will do the same. If QC has a great year and leads Dallas to the playoffs and beyond, if he has a great year and shows big improvement, I will gladly eat crow and admit that I was wrong on Carter. I just want a winning QB!!!!! :D

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