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Little clarification on the Vince Young wonderlic issue

Discussion in 'Draft Zone' started by TruBlueCowboy, Feb 28, 2006.

  1. TruBlueCowboy

    TruBlueCowboy New Member

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    We all know that PFT lied about Young's low score (gee, what a shocker, didn't see that one coming :rolleyes: ) but I've noticed a lot of folks debating the score in the other threads who don't seem to realize the average scores among NFL players and other interested parties. Some interesting links you might want to check out:

    (BTW, Vince Young scored a 16.)

    Average scores at positions:

    Offensive tackles: 26
    Centers: 25
    Quarterbacks: 24
    Guards: 23
    Tight Ends: 22
    Safeties: 19
    Middle linebackers: 19
    Cornerbacks: 18
    Wide receivers: 17
    Fullbacks: 17
    Halfbacks: 16

    Source: http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=merron/020228

    Average score at regular professions:

    Chemist: 31
    Programmer: 29
    Newswriter: 26
    Sales: 24
    Bank teller: 22
    Clerical Worker: 21
    Security Guard: 17
    Warehouse: 15

    Source: http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=merron/020228

    Smartest teams in the NFL based on wonderlic scores (3 games into last season):

    1. St. Louis Rams (2-1) 24.6
    Coach Mike Martz’s intricate offense takes brains: Average Wonderlic for offensive players is a 27, just below the average for chemists.Some wide receivers have to learn four positions.

    2. Oakland Raiders (0-3) 23.3
    Surprise: Not known for scholarship, the Super Bowl runners-up for the 2002 season have a rookie crop that averages 26.But the offense is tied for league lead in penalties—and the team has yet to win a game.

    3. Tennessee Titans (1-2) 23.2
    To play defensive end for the Tennessee Titans, you’d better be pushing Mensa levels—their average score is 33. Intelligence, says GM Floyd Reese, “is something we look at harder every year.”

    3. Tampa Bay Buccaneers (3-0) 23.2
    Team’s linebackers have a heady average of 30, and guards averaged 34. Overall offensive line score of 29.6 may explain why running back Carnell Williams leads the NFL in rushing.

    5. San Diego Chargers (1-2) 23
    Rookie defensive end Luis Castillo from Northwestern (32) has started three games.

    6. Dallas Cowboys (2-1) 22.8
    May have the smartest collection of QBs ever assembled—Drew Bledsoe (37), Drew Henson (42) and Tony Romo (37).Pla yers with numbers like those are “in the mental elite,” says Wonderlic executive Michael Callans. :starspin

    7. Chicago Bears (1-2) 22.6
    Forty players from the young Bears showed up in our Wonderlic dragnet, edging out the Cardinals and Colts (38 each).Brains are concentrated on defense, which hasn't given up a rushing touchdown this season.

    8. Carolina Panthers (1-2) 22.1
    Tackle Jordan Gross (40) may be the brainiest starter in the NFL.

    9. San Francisco 49ers (1-2) 21.7
    Quarterback Alex Smith, the team’s first-round pick, scored 40, but team says Wonderlic scores are used only in “rare cases” when all other factors are equal.

    9. N.Y. Jets (1-2) 21.7
    Heading the other way? The Jets’ first seven draft picks in 2005 were just below average, totaling a 20.8 Wonderlic.

    11. Cleveland Browns (1-2) 21.6
    Tied for league lead in Stanford graduates.T op draft pick, wide receiver Braylon Edwards from Michigan, scored a 27.

    11. New England Patriots (2-1) 21.6
    Despite his team’s intelligent reputation, coach Bill Belichick doesn’t always favor high scorers.Our sample was relatively small—29 players—but nine of 13 starters had below-average Wonderlics.

    11. Buffalo Bills (1-2) 21.6
    Football intelligence? Stingiest defense in the NFL this season has only a 21 average.For mer Tulane quarterback J.P. Losman (31) has thrown only one interception so far.

    14. Baltimore Ravens (0-2) 21.5
    Defense’s Roderick Green has the lowest score in our sample, a 3, which his agent attributes to a learning disability.“ P eople should respect his football talents,” says James Selser.

    14. Minnesota Vikings (1-2) 21.5
    According to Wonderlic scores, quarterback Daunte Culpepper tested out at an average 21.His agent would not confirm the mark, calling it “a confidential thing.”

    16. Seattle Seahawks (2-1) 21.3
    Smart is relative: Seattle was one of the least-penalized teams in the NFL in 2004.Defensiv e starters average 22—just above the national average across professions.

    16. Detroit Lions (1-1) 21.3
    The Lions had what could be the highest-scoring draft, test-wise, in NFL history.The first five players it picked had a 28.4 average.

    18. Denver Broncos (2-1) 21.2
    Denver’s secret revealed: Seven of the 10 top-scoring Broncos in our sample are offensive linemen.W ithout them, the Broncos would have ranked 25th.The team’s running backs average less than 17.

    19. Miami Dolphins (2-1) 21.1
    New coach Nick Saban’s comes from LSU, where the meanWonderlic for NFL hopefuls is below average (18.4). This year’s draft picks averaged 20.3, also below average. But Donnie Jones (29)may be the the NFL’s smartest punter.

    19. Pittsburgh Steelers (2-1) 21.1
    Sensational quarterback Ben Roethlisberger scored a 25, nowhere near the top among QBs.Still, he has the NFL’s highest passer rating.“Ben has an unbelievable memory,” says his agent.

    19. Atlanta Falcons (2-1) 21.1
    General manager Rich McKay is a Princeton graduate, but this year’s draft class had a 19 average.F alcons’ overall score is close to that for police officers.

    22. Indianapolis Colts (3-0) 20.8
    High and low: While Colts offense is famously complicated, team’s surprisingly effective defense is not.Ov erall defense scored 19, and the first three defenders drafted this year averaged 16.

    23. N.Y. Giants (2-1) 20.4
    Eli Manning (39) leads our sample of starting NFL QBs.Giants also give prospects a two-hour psychological test.

    24. Philadelphia Eagles (2-1) 20.1
    QB Donovan McNabb had a below-average Wonderlic but runs the league’s most potent offense.T eam’s top testtakers? The backfield: Outside linebackers, cornerbacks and safeties average 27.

    25. Houston Texans (0-2) 20
    Quarterback David Carr (24) leads the league’s least productive offense. In our sample, no Houston offensive player scored higher than 26.

    25. New Orleans Saints (1-2) 20
    Mental mistakes? The Saints’ offense led the NFL in 2004 penalty yards.T his year, too, it’s leading the league in total penalties.

    27. Jacksonville Jaguars (2-1) 19.8
    Go figure: Offensive line is the smartest unit on the team, but quarterback Byron Leftwich has been sacked 11 times.

    27. Cincinnati Bengals (3-0) 19.8
    Bengals quarterback Carson Palmer (26) leads the NFL in passing touchdowns, but team’s defense is the wild card.Two middle linebackers both scored a 12 on test.

    29.Washington Redskins (2-0) 19.6
    Agent Todd France says the team wasn’t concerned that his client, top 2005 pick Carlos Rogers, scored 14.The agent says he helps his clients prep for Wonderlic by giving sample questions.“Y ou don't want any surprises.” :lmao2:

    30. Kansas City Chiefs (2-1) 19.3
    Skewed sample? The Chiefs had the fewest players show up in our sample—23 in all—in part because it fields so many veterans.Rookie linebacker Boomer Grigsby has defense’s top Wonderlic (34) but doesn’t start.

    31. Arizona Cardinals (0-3) 19.2
    Birds of a feather: This 0-3 franchise hasn’t made it to the playoffs since 1998.T eam’s big crop of rookies averages just below a 19 Wonderlic.

    32. Green Bay Packers (0-3) 19.1
    Winless Packers have nine players with scores below 14. The team declined to comment.Interesting fact: According to E.F. Wonderlic Co., the lowest average score for any occupation is “packer,” with a 14.69.

    Source: Wall Street Journal but pasted from here http://www.burghsportsguys.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3436

    Some interesting facts:

    Average score of general population is 21.
    9 of the last 12 Super Bowl teams were on the top third of the WSJ's best wonderlic scores list.

    Source: http://www.sptimes.com/2005/10/05/Bucs/As_complexity_increas.shtml

    Best college wonderlic score average based on their NFL players:

    1. Stanford 28.8 (21) 85
    Top test scores, few gridiron stars: In last seven years, one grad (offensive lineman Kwame Harris) has been a first-round NFL draft pick.Stanford “is very proud of its student-athletes,” says a spokesman.

    2. Purdue 25.3 (21) 63
    Boilermakers have won one Big 10 title in 35 years, but recent alums have had Wonderlic success: Current NFL quarterbacks Drew Brees and Kyle Orton scored above-average 34 and 27, respectively.

    3. BYU 25.2 (29) 19
    Graduation rate skews low because many BYU players go on two-year Mormon missions during college.

    3. California 25.2 (22) 48
    They test, play well: Team made two straight bowl appearances, had five first-round picks since 2000.

    5. UCLA 24 (21) 55
    Bruins have lost six straight games to crosstown rival USC, but they beat Trojans on the Wonderlic.
    6. Oregon 23.5 (22) 68
    Ducks coach Mike Bellotti says the school makes players’ academic success “a priority.”

    7. Wisconsin 23.2 (29) 56
    More than high test scores: Eight Badgers have been first-round NFL picks in past six years.

    8. Iowa 23 (33) 58
    On field, ranked in the AP’s Top 10 for the past three years.Thank alum Jared Clauss, now defensivetackle for the NFL’s Titans, for boosting its average: He scored a rocket-scientist-worthy 45 last year.

    9. Oregon State 22.8 (21) 44
    Beavers haven’t been an elite team since finishing No.4 in 2000.At least players test well: Nearly halfof its alums have scored over 28 at the NFL combine since 1999.

    10. Nebraska 22.6 (34) 63
    Players’ tests have been at the top of the Big 12 conference over the past seven years.

    11. Notre Dame 22.5 (36) 77 Rams picked unheralded cornerback Shane Walton—he scored a 34 in 2003 exam—in the fifth round.

    12. Boston College 22 (22) 78
    ”From the first moment we recruit a student-athlete, we tell them we expect them to leave BC as champions in the classroom, on the field and in the community,” says coach Tom O’Brien.

    13. Colorado 21.8 (29) 43 In 2002,
    NFL’s Patriots took Colorado tight end Daniel Graham (Wonderlic: 10) in the first round.Says Jack Mills, Mr.Graham’s agent: “The better an athlete is, the less the score seems to matter.”

    14. Michigan 21.7 (36) 57
    Perennial power just slipped out of AP’s Top 20, but school’s prospects have been solid on exam day.

    15. Virginia 21.5 (24) 75
    Alum Heath Miller, a rookie tight end with Pittsburgh, scored a sky-high 39 on this year’s Wonderlic.

    16. Texas A&M 21 (31) 50
    School had more prospects attend the NFL combine in past few years than its big rivals from Austin. :yourock:

    17. Florida 20.8 (44) 42
    Florida had better Wonderlic scores than rivals Miami, Florida State, and Tennessee.

    17. Ohio State 20.8 (43) 52
    Former QB Craig Krenzel led Buckeyes to dramatic national title in ’02, scored a 39… then started a fewgames last year with Chicago.He’s now a backup in Cincinnati.

    19. Penn State 20.7 (26) 74
    Of recent draftees, Washington linebacker LaVar Arrington (17) has made the biggest dent in the NFL.

    19. Va. Tech 20.7 (29) 58
    Alumnus Michael Vick got a 20 on his exam, low for a top quarterback.But now he’s an NFL All-Pro.

    21. Southern Cal 20.3 (30) 58
    Trojans’ test scores aren’t setting any records.But current NCAA champs have won 25 straight games,and seven players have been No.1 NFL draft picks since ’99, most among Pac-10 schools.

    21.W. Virginia 20.3 (25) 46
    School keeps turning out top prospects like Rams quarterback Marc Bulger (Wonderlic: 29).

    23. Arizona St. 20.2 (30) 44
    Among Pac-10 schools, tied with USC for most players taking the test since ‘99.

    24. Kansas State 19.8 (34) 61
    Wildcats have been consistently solid on the field—No. 8 final AP ranking in ’03 and a No.6 in ’02.But school has produced only one first-round NFL pick in past seven years.

    24. Georgia 19.8 (39) 53
    The good: Bulldogs tight end and New England draftee Ben Watson got a 41 in ’04.The bad: Onedefensive tackle posted a 7 in ’99.

    26. Texas 19.7 (28) 34
    Alum Ricky Williams, a running back who quit the NFL last year and returned this season, got a 30 in1999—topping all but two of the UT players in our sample over the past seven years. :choke:

    27. N. Carolina State 19.6 (21) 42
    Ex-Wolfpack star Torry Holt, now an All-Pro receiver for the Rams, was hardly sharp on his Wonderlic: He scored 11 points when he took it in ’99.His agents didn’t respond to requests for comment.

    28. Florida St. 19.4 (47) 49
    No school has had more players take the exam over last seven years.

    29. Oklahoma 19 (34) 40
    Sooners finished second in the polls the last two years.T est scores are less cause for celebration.

    30. North Carolina 18.9 (24) 53
    School says 70% of UNC alums currently playing in the NFL received undergraduate degrees.“The factthat our players graduate trumps the test they take at the combine,” says a UNC spokesman.

    31. Arkansas 18.6 (27) 35
    Arkansas had losing record in 2004, lost last four bowl games, declined to comment on graduation rates.

    32. Auburn 18.5 (28) 48
    Two Auburn running backs were taken among the first five picks in this year’s NFL draft.

    32. LSU 18.5 (31) 42
    Standout alum: Tampa Bay defensive tackle Anthony McFarland got an impressive 34 on his test and won a Super Bowl ring.

    34. Clemson 18.3 (21) 51
    Clemson officials, like those from many schools, didn’t know much about the Wonderlic. “It’s hard focus to comment on a test that none of us has ever seen,” says an athletic-department spokesman

    35. Alabama 18.2 (28) 49
    Five former Crimson Tide players have failed to score 10 points on the Wonderlic since ’99.

    36. S. Carolina 17.9 (21) 54
    Only three former Gamecocks have been selected in the first round since 1999.

    37. Tennessee 17.7 (46) 38
    Over past seven years, only Florida State had more players invited to the combine.

    38. Michigan State 16.6 (28) 41
    So much for Michigan State: Graduation rates and test scores for its system’s players are at the bottomof the pack, and it hasn’t ranked in the final AP poll in four years.

    39. Miami (FL) 16.3 (40) 57
    On average, Miami’s football stars do about as well on the test as the average nurse’s aide (16.59). Still, school is second only to Oklahoma in national football rankings over the past four years, and produced 22 first-round picks in the past seven years, most by far in college football.

    Source: WSJ but pasted from here http://www.burghsportsguys.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3436

    Notable NFL QB wonderlic scores:

    Tom Brady 33
    Dan Marino 16 or 14
    Joey Harrington 32
    Randall Cunningham 15
    Drew Bledsoe 37 :bow:
    Brett Favre 22
    Brian Griese 39
    John Elway 30
    Steve Young 33
    Troy Aikman 29 :starspin
    Ben Roethlisberger 25
    Eli Manning 39
    J.P. Losman 31
    Philip Rivers 30

    Source: http://www.sptimes.com/2005/10/05/Bucs/As_complexity_increas.shtml
    http://www.dailycardinal.com/article.php?storyid=1028989
    http://dallascowboyszone.com/forums/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=2
    http://mb20.scout.com/fcpndhardcorefrm43.showMessage?topicID=1055.topic
  2. Chuck 54

    Chuck 54 Well-Known Member

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    nice digging
  3. sacase

    sacase Well-Known Member

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    Ricky ain't dumb, he just likes to puff on the Mary Jane.
  4. theogt

    theogt Surrealist Zone Supporter

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    Actually PFT didn't lie about it. The most recent reports basically confirm that he got a 6, but that there MAY have been a mistake and so he retook it. Honestly, the 16 is no more impressive than the 6. It just shows that he guessed better since statistically one SHOULD score between 12 and 16 by guessing.
  5. Bob Sacamano

    Bob Sacamano Benched

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    who cares about wonderlic scores? that green bay fs they took in the 3rd this year, scored less than a 10, and he wound up pretty good his rookie year
  6. JIGGYFLY

    JIGGYFLY Active Member

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    There you go again:laugh2:
  7. BARRYRAY

    BARRYRAY Active Member

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    You know I'm gonna go the other direction here, folks sure want to put this guy down, not sure there's not some Rose Bowl backlash, this guy may be a washout, but it shows me he's a hard worker with limited IQ, I mean I was in the bottom of my high school class but I woke up somewhere around 18 and decided that hrd work can overcome alot, I got two degrees and a jd, don't write Vince Young off, he's a kid from the ghetto that has made good, he's done something that even Simms with his rich daddy couldn't do, win a national championship, there were many times that people here in Austin wanted to ditch him but he persevered. There have been alot of people6 that have been succesful qb's that aren't rocket scientists, personally I love Troy as a qb but he doesn't come across on tv as all that intelligent so hey, all I'm saying is give him a chance, he may drop down but somebody may find that he can adapt to the pro game and just because nobobdy has wona sb as a running qb doesn't mean that this guy might be the first....
  8. TruBlueCowboy

    TruBlueCowboy New Member

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    Well, if you read the Wall Street Journal article, you'll see that some teams could care less about a player's intelligence and some teams find it to be one of the more important attributes. Ya don't have to be a rocket scientist to play with the pigskin, but having some brains in that dome definitely helps at many positions, and probably helps a player grow a lot quicker.
  9. Jay

    Jay Active Member

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    PFT didn't lie about this whatsoever. They even said that the rumors were started at the combine. Apparently the person who was grading Vince's test graded it incorrectly, and didn't realize the mistake until the score was already leaked.

    It was clarified that it wasn't an internet rumor, because there were multiple non-internet publications around the country who were reporting Vince scoring a 6 as well.

    Edit: And of course you don't have to be a 'rocket scientist' to play football, but you need to have some intelligence at the QB position especially. Go check the other thread, no QB has won the Super Bowl with a Wonderlic score of less than 22. Interesting stat.
  10. Bob Sacamano

    Bob Sacamano Benched

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    true, but if you can play, you can play
  11. TruBlueCowboy

    TruBlueCowboy New Member

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    How far back are you going with the Wonderlic scores? Landry didn't start it until the 70's so I'm not sure you have much of a pool to collect from.
  12. JonJon

    JonJon Injured Reserve

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    I really would like to see a copy of an actual test just to see how hard these questions are. It can't be any harder than the SAT or ACT, which were not really that hard. Does anybody know what kinds of questions are asked?
  13. TruBlueCowboy

    TruBlueCowboy New Member

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    http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=020228test
  14. AbeBeta

    AbeBeta Well-Known Member

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    how many times do we need to explain the concept of averages and variability?

    just because there are players who score very low and are succesful doesn't mean the test is useless.
  15. theogt

    theogt Surrealist Zone Supporter

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    Actually, I'm a big Vince Young supporter. I think it would be great if he somehow dropped to #18. I think he's going to be a successful NFL QB. It would certainly be very exciting watching him in a Dallas jersey. However, there's some serious misinformation going on here...namely, that the Wonderlic doesn't matter and that the report was false. Both of course are not true. The initial score may have had some error. We'll probably never know for sure.
  16. Everlastingxxx

    Everlastingxxx All Star

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    trublu, that was fun to read.

    I wonder if you can test online.
  17. AbeBeta

    AbeBeta Well-Known Member

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    You can't take the actual test on-line it is proprietary. The items that espn posted are what the company provides as example items.
  18. TheHustler

    TheHustler Active Member

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    I wouldn't take this data too seriously. There's no information backing up how they got it, what the sample size was or what verifcation methods were used to determine occupation.

    Anyone else take the test on ESPN.com? I got 14/15, skipped the size of font one because it's much too early in the morning for me to do math.
  19. devotedfan

    devotedfan Member

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  20. AbeBeta

    AbeBeta Well-Known Member

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    but did you do it in 3 minutes 40 seconds? that would be the correct timing (the regular version is 50 questions in 12 minutes)

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