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Masters

Discussion in 'Sports Zone' started by Future, Apr 11, 2013.

  1. CowboyDan

    CowboyDan Anger is a Gift

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    It's not an illegal drop, so I don't understand why they've even given him 2 strokes. Here's the rule:

    USGA.org 26-1:
    Relief For Ball In Water Hazard:
    If a ball is found in a water hazard or if it is known or virtually certain that a ball that has not been found is in the water hazard (whether the ball lies in water or not), the player may under penalty of one stroke:

    a. Proceed under the stroke and distance provision of Rule 27-1 by playing a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or

    b. Drop a ball behind the water hazard, keeping the point at which the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the water hazard the ball may be dropped; or

    c. As additional options available only if the ball last crossed the margin of a lateral water hazard, drop a ball outside the water hazard within two club-lengths of and not nearer the hole than (i) the point where the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard or (ii) a point on the opposite margin of the water hazard equidistant from the hole.

    When proceeding under this Rule, the player may lift and clean his ball or substitute a ball.

    PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE:
    Match play - Loss of hole; Stroke play - Two strokes.


    There it is, plain as day, in the rule. Where's the infraction? Are they penalizing him for being smart? Here's the thing that really bugs me:

    "It was not deemed illegal at the time, but as FOXSports.com's Robert Lusetich reported, Woods' own words gave the rules committee cause for concern.
    The rules committee had already been informed of a possible problem while Woods was on the course but made a determination he was OK. The about-face came after learning what he had said about moving two yards back."

    What's overshadowed in all this is how perfect his second shot was. He had to regroup after being cheated out of a brilliant approach shot, and he drops it and hits another perfect pitch for a tap-in.
  2. CowboyDan

    CowboyDan Anger is a Gift

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    Disqualify himself??? Hell no! The penalty for the infraction isn't even DQ. And he didn't commit the infraction to begin with.

    Go out and win anyway. Success is the best Revenge!
  3. CowboyDan

    CowboyDan Anger is a Gift

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    :bang2: I just realized I'm looking at the wrong part of that rule. He chose Part A, which is to replay it as close as possible to the original spot. He admitted to moving it 2 yards back. I get it now. 2 stroke penalty, now go out and win it anyway.
  4. honyock

    honyock Well-Known Member

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    I'm leaning towards thinking that he should DQ himself. He tried to gain an advantage by dropping the ball farther back and admitted that. I think the ruling was correct, but when a player does that, the gentlemanly thing to do would be to DQ yourself. There is a very high standard for self-policing in golf, and I think Tiger should fall on his sword here.
  5. CowboyDan

    CowboyDan Anger is a Gift

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    I disagree. If he knowingly broke the rule, I doubt he would've spouted it on national TV. I think he got the rule wrong. Hell, I did it in my first post and I was reading the rule!

    If he knowingly cheated, I agree with you. But I don't think he knowingly cheated, just got the rule wrong.
  6. honyock

    honyock Well-Known Member

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    Well, Tiger just tweeted that he didn't knowingly violate the rule, so we'll just have to take him on his word at that.

    But, golf history is full of players dq'ing themselves in situations like this, even though they didn't have to. Golf is really unique among pro sports, players are held to an extremely high 'gentleman's standard'. Bobby Jones once cost himself a U.S. Open by calling a penalty on himself. The USGA tried to talk him out of it, saying he hadn't violated anything, but he insisted. It cemented his legacy as the ultimate sportsman.

    Tiger doesn't have to dq himself. Obviously, he can play if he wants. But these things live on forever in the history of the game. He's the alpha dog on tour and everything he does gets special scrutiny. Diqaualifying himself would be the right thing to do, in the context of the history of the game, and it would be the classy thing to do and it would actually elevate his image (which could still use some elevating in many people's eyes).

    He's not going to do it. But if he did, he'd be demonstrating that a respect for the gentleman's history of the game is more important than his desire to win a tournament.
  7. Rogah

    Rogah Well-Known Member

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    The ball crossed into the water from the other side, so he cannot go backwards from where his shot was taken.

    It was an illegal drop, they should have done exactly what they did, which is penalize him 2 strokes and allow him to continue to play. Any other player who got caught doing the same thing would have faced the same penalty, although you could argue that "any other player" may not have been caught since each and every single one of Woods' strokes gets far more attention than anyone else's.

    To quote Tiger, when asked about the 1-stroke penalty given to Tianling Guan: "The rules are the rules."
    He wasn't "cheated" out of anything. A guy who is notorious for having an incredible amount of good luck finally had some bad luck go his way. It's all part of the game.
  8. Rogah

    Rogah Well-Known Member

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    I disagree. He did try to gain an advantage but he didn't know that in this particular situation it was illegal to gain the type of advantage he was taking.

    I am no fan of Tiger Woods, but I do not believe he received any special treatment and I do not for one single second believe he deliberately broke the rules.

    He messed up and has been penalized two very critical strokes. That is penalty enough.
  9. Rogah

    Rogah Well-Known Member

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    That's a misepresentation of what happened. Keep in mind that you're talking about a day and age where there is no video footage, but Bobby called a penalty on himself because he felt he did something illegal according to the rules of golf.

    The present day rules of golf allow a golfer to play on if he makes an inadvertant mistake, and I have no doubt that Woods' error was inadvertant.
  10. honyock

    honyock Well-Known Member

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    I think the ruling and the two shot penalty was correct, and it was correct on the part of the tournament to not DQ him.

    But I think Tiger should have withdrawn. Even if inadvertent, he made a decision to gain a competitive advantage that proved to be in error. There is plenty of precedent for players self-policing more rigorously than tournament committees. This is the kind of decision that lingers for a player's reputation, especially for one as high profile as Tiger.
  11. dexternjack

    dexternjack World Traveler Zone Supporter

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    Whether or not the correct decision was made, I don't care much. Lose Tiger, ratings take a huge hit or keep him in and look like conspirists. Tough situation to be in.

    But, Tiger has missed a huge opportunity here. He had a chance to try and regain the public opinion of him by DQing himself. It might have showed some integrity and character to those who oppose him. Instead, he shows his selfish side and deflects criticism and continued to play.

    He should have manned up and removed himself, that would have gone a long ways compared to this new black cloud that is going to hang over him for the rest of his career IMO.

    If this happened at any other golf major, he would have been disqualified, but the Masters have their own guidelines.
  12. Rogah

    Rogah Well-Known Member

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    I am no fan of Woods, but there is nothing selfish about his continuing play.
    That's just not true; your opinion is based on incoreect beliefs. The rule was changed about 2 years ago. Tiger would not have been DQ'ed anywhere else under the present rules.
  13. DOUBLE WING

    DOUBLE WING Well-Known Member

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    Are you kidding? I would lose respect for Tiger if he did that. People like Tiger, Jordan, Kobe, etc. don't care about anything but winning. That's why so many people respect them. They will literally do anything to win. Jordan isn't going to tell the ref he traveled in an NBA finals game. If you don't catch him doing it, then too bad.
  14. dexternjack

    dexternjack World Traveler Zone Supporter

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    Those who don't like Tiger will see it as selfish, I did not mean it was selfish of him to play. It just adds more fuel to the fire.

    As for the rules, I am still hearing that since his ball landed past the water and went in, he could not move back for a drop. That is a PGA rule, but not at the Masters. It is hard to get 100% confirmation, there are lots of arguments for both sides out there.
  15. Rogah

    Rogah Well-Known Member

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    You shouldn't apply a basketball mentality to golf, which has about a century of gentleman calling penalties on themselves. It is an entirely different sport and an entirely different culture.

    However, as I have said before, in this case I do not for one single second believe Tiger knowlingly violated the rules. Which means he didn't knowingly sign an erroneous scorecard, which is why he should keep playing.
  16. Rogah

    Rogah Well-Known Member

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    I have to respectfully disagree. I am not seeing a single professional commentator or writer claim that the drop itself was perfectly legal. The only question is how far should the penalty have gone.
  17. dexternjack

    dexternjack World Traveler Zone Supporter

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    I don't think he knowingly cheated either. In 2011, the USGA amended a rule for things like this that penalized 2 strokes instead of a DQ. However, this tournament has their own rules committee and abide by them, not the USGA. The whole question is which of the three options did he choose to drop from?

    option b is the one he should have chosen...b. Drop a ball behind the water hazard, keeping the point at which the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the water hazard the ball may be dropped.

    Problem here is he did not choose that one.

    This was a perfect storm for disaster. The Masters is only tournament that does not have rules officials with every group ... and they are the only tournament not owned by the PGA. If there would have been a rules official on that hole, he should have gotten a ruling before he went to 16 ... then it would have been 2 strokes or done.

    If this would have been corrected before he signed his scorecard, he would have been given a stroke penalty and it's done. The problem is he signed it and we don't know who is at fault, him or the officials for letting it slip by.
  18. jimmy40

    jimmy40 Well-Known Member

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    The funny thing about this is the almighty Master's committee didn't know the rule on the drop, the funniest thing is them saying they would treat any other player the same. Bahahahaha
  19. jimmy40

    jimmy40 Well-Known Member

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    he didn't bother asking his playing partner either so a I doubt he would have asked for a ruling.
  20. UKCowboysFan

    UKCowboysFan Member

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    Ask yourself one question about the decision.

    If it had been a 14 year old Chinese player, do you think he would have been allowed to carry on? (Let's face it, applying a one stroke penalty for slow play happens all the time in PGA Tour events, doesn't it?)



    He's been allowed to carry on because he's Tiger Woods, if it had been most other players, they would have been packing their bags by now. And not because they DQ'ed themselves either.

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